Judging

[byline]

Normally I'm adamantly opposed to ties, especially first-place ties which basically say that no clear winner was chosen. Both times I witnessed that at WGI, it felt like a huge letdown. Maybe not to the guards, themselves, but as an audience member, it seemed very anticlimactic.

Saturday night, especially with the third-place tie between Aimachi and Blessed Sac, I have very mixed feelings. If a tie-breaker were used, who would have been shut out of a bronze medal? In that particular case, I was happy that both guards received a medal. I would've been a lot more unhappy if, as happens in some cases, if there's a tie in one placement, then the placement above it is eliminated. That would've meant that two bronze medals were awarded, no silver medal, and then a gold medal. That bugs me!

By the way, thanks for your clear explanation of the judging process. I know it's hard to understand why scores go down. In a perfect world, they wouldn't. But there are very good reasons for why that happens, and you've cited them.

[Jak]

There have been ties with double panels. There were ties this year because guards were very, very close. If you simpy rank and rate your caption, as a good judge should, you should not be concerned with the outcome of the contest. If all judges do this and the score is a tie...so be it. Math is math. Double panels actually increase the chances of a tie because spreads are minimized when averaged.

I know there have been ties with double panels, but they were less likely. When you have double panels, the score goes to the hundredth instead of the tenth. This made ties less likely. Obviously the judge should simply rank and rate their caption, but I'm asking if there should be a WGI policy for tiebreakers. This would not be up to the individual judge. For instance, there was a time when DCI used the GE Score as a tiebreaker. Then they eliminated tiebreakers, which led to ties at the top in 96, 99, and 00. The new tiebreaker is an ordinal system. You add up the placements (regardless of spread) in each caption for each group, and whoever has the lowest number wins the tie.

Just FYI, if either tiebreaker system had been used this year, Choctaw would have been on top of Center Grove and Aimachi would have been on top of Blessed Sac.

[byline]

Just FYI, if either tiebreaker system had been used this year, Choctaw would have been on top of Center Grove and Aimachi would have been on top of Blessed Sac.

Hmmm . . . not sure how I feel about that, especially with Blessed Sac. I absolutely loved Aimachi (and that pesky emotional side of me wishes they'd placed higher), but I have a long-standing love of Blessed Sac, so I would've hated to have seen either guard miss out on a medal. Not my usual attitude about ties, but there you go. Nobody said this had to be a rational response! :)

[Oldguardhag]

I was thinking about the fact that we had two ties in World Class. How does everyone feel about that? I think it's kind of a shame. I know it rarely happened when they used double panels. Should WGI look at putting a tie-breaker system into place? I know DCI has one. They could use ordinals or something. Any opinions?

OHHH NO NO NO NO - been on the losing end of that one - went to the 4th tie breaker - a "non-judged" caption at that time - it SUCKED (pardon the language....) and that group STILL hasn't recovered from how it devasted the morale and program. If one guard is stronger in a caption and another in another and the rest balances then GOD bless them they BOTH deserve it . Haven't studied THAT recap, but how about the almost 3 - way tie in SW????? Jeeze - not one of those guards tied in any caption. Math.... Go figure... when you make it out of 100 - well? Math majors??? Oh - and 2 people judging the GE caption - a caption that was INTENDED to be subjective... well, what do you expect??? LET THEM TIE!!!! They're kids (even the 40 year old ones in IW!!! )

[Oldguardhag]

A better way would be to have a double panel for finals and in the event of a tie then the high and low scores are dropped to determine the winner. If they are still the same then it is a tie.

Do you know how much that costs???? And do you know how much the guards are already paying to afford these judging panels??? I was told the reason of the elimination of the double panels was all about expense.... Maybe you can ask WGI to see their books???

In all seriousness - please try this next year yourself. Even if you don't know sheets, pick something (your favorite colors for costumes and style for example). Now at least the WGI panels know that the last part of each round is stronger then the first part because they blocked (but still have to leave room for the "what about this one that made huge progress since their regional in Feb.....). Try a show with 24 on the same sheet in random order. What if 1st one on is the best, 2nd one the worst??? And how could you know, espcially where re-cap studying is forbidden, or it's the first show of the year? Oh - 2 sites = 2 different panels. And if you're an IA judge - one of your sub captions only gets 7 points..... But it's ok to tie in that one, for that reason.

[Oldguardhag]

So what are you suppose to tell your kids who worked hard all year and make finals and the drop 9 points in finals. What a disappointment for the kids.

Not it you've educated them and prepared them. Their goal should be their best performance, and if they acheived that, then what matter the score? They can't change the written book given to them nor to their competitors. There's no defense in this sport!

[nicccola]

This year was our guard's first year to attend WGI Championships, and we made finals which is a huge accomplishment for us.. and really that was our goal this year. Our guard came off the floor feeling like we already had first... I told my instructor we should just go back to the hotel cause I didn't care what the judges had to say to us, because our entire guard had the best run in our life. We dropped 3 or 4 (i can't remember) places from semis into finals even though we had the best run of the season(and the best run all week). Sure medals are fine and dandy... but knowing my last, senior performance was our entire's guards best is all I need. Also people taking the time to come up to us to say we deserved so much higher seems to be a lot more rewarding than a medal. :D

Edited April 19, 2007 by nicccola

[byline]

Not it you've educated them and prepared them. Their goal should be their best performance, and if they acheived that, then what matter the score? They can't change the written book given to them nor to their competitors. There's no defense in this sport!

I agree. But it's ironic that you say this, then protest the idea of a tie-breaker. My feeling is the answer to the tie-breaker is the same as what you say above about the 9-point drop. A guard, or any competitive individual or unit, should be able to accept the judging results, period. Because judging is not something they can control; all they can control is their own performance. But the curse, and the blessing, of being in a competitive event is that the results will not always come out the way we want. So the competitors have to be prepared for that. One of the best lessons a teacher can give is to prepare the students for adversity as well as success. Because life certainly isn't always fair, and that life lesson is demonstrated over and over again in competititon.

[cavalier81]

Wow! What a lame excuse. Basically what your saying is there might as well not be finals as they must have been but in the right order in semi-finals. Sorry my opinion is different. The judges should each guard in each round and let the scores fall way they may. With that thinking it means that a guard the blows up in finals will likely only fall one position. What is the point of having finals then?

So what are you suppose to tell your kids who worked hard all year and make finals and the drop 9 points in finals. What a disappointment for the kids.

The bottom line is the judges get paid and they are supposed to know how to judge. This year’s SA class from 10-16 was separated by only 0.8 points going into finals. That should mean that if one of those guards had a bad show they should have dropped several positions, but with the current thinking of lowering to scores and spreading them out then that didn’t happen. I’m not saying that guards didn’t finish in the correct position but I heard many people that thought that West Orange should have finished higher.

This also means that if a guard has a bad performance in prelims is sunk and they have no way to recover regardless of what they do. Instead of putting everything in prelimins, it should be focused towards finals and let the best guard for that show win.

A better way would be to have a double panel for finals and in the event of a tie then the high and low scores are dropped to determine the winner. If they are still the same then it is a tie.

I saw several guards that got standing ovations and others that barely got any applause from the crowd. Remember this is supposed to be for the kids and what difference does it make if there is a tie.

As an instructor of one of those A Guards that had their score drop, We told our kids "Congrats for making finals, now go out and just have fun!!" "Do this for yourselfs and the crowd" They had and blast and so did the crowd. Thank You MCHS!!!!

[Oldguardhag]

I agree. But it's ironic that you say this, then protest the idea of a tie-breaker. My feeling is the answer to the tie-breaker is the same as what you say above about the 9-point drop. A guard, or any competitive individual or unit, should be able to accept the judging results, period. Because judging is not something they can control; all they can control is their own performance. But the curse, and the blessing, of being in a competitive event is that the results will not always come out the way we want. So the competitors have to be prepared for that. One of the best lessons a teacher can give is to prepare the students for adversity as well as success. Because life certainly isn't always fair, and that life lesson is demonstrated over and over again in competititon.

Actually, very consistent. My point is: let the results, as they are, stand. Any tie breaker is artifical. It either weights one caption over another, or looks at ordinals verses actual points, or some other theoretical that has nothing to with that day's performance, or the actual judging and sheets as they are currently written. I don't really understand why a tie is disappointing. That a guard has met another that is so close it's match - that they've traded captions so evenly with an odd number of judges that it still comes out a tie.... what's wrong with that? I loved both Amachi and Sac, if for different reasons, and I couldn't pick an overall winner. I'm sure I'd have had a favorite in regards to a specific caption if I'd been watching for that.... but I was fortunate enough to be able to just be a spectator and enjoy!