Why I Love Recaps (And Occasionally Miss Ticks)

[rayfallon]

I'm really happy to see the lively discussion that has arisen from my OP. On its surface, I was simply musing about score disparity that occurred once upon a time that never occurs anymore, and the most logical explanation would be how the execution judges plied their craft. In the Stone Age, and execution judge's tools of the trade were simply a judging sheet, a clipboard, and a pen. No tape recorders for the tick judges. In many cases (I'm not sure how frequently - if there are any Old Tyme judges in the audience, they might be able to shed some light on this), the tick was put on the sheet without explanation, simply a tick. However, I've also seen X sheets from BITD where the judge would specify the offense, i.e., "Tenor, roll release, drum solo." If an instructor had a taste for conspiracy theory, it would be easy to say, "15 more ticks than last night? Judge so-and-so just had it in for us tonight!"

With evolution came the tape recorder, and more accountability. Judges could then describe the nature of the tick in real time, but the question of what was acceptable and what was a tick never really went away. Back in the '80s, I taught with some former judges who judged during the tick era, and more than once, I listened to stories about what they would call "D&R Shows", with "D&R" standing for "Dump & Run". Without wanting to read into such a description, it's hard not to read into such a description.

I also remember having a conversation with an old DCA judge who judged back in the '70s, when DCA corps tended to play with a certain....shall we say.....enthusiasm. I asked him about how he would evaluate that approach, and his response was, "Sometimes, it gets so loud that you just let the ticks go right on by."

As with the modern system, it would be impossible for a judge to not allow personal taste or school of technical thought to not creep into an evaluation, even on a subconscious level. Method of attack, method of release, and all of the other basics of technique could be interpreted very differently from Judge A to Judge B.....just like they can be today.

However...because the OP was simply about wild swings in scores from night to night, let me give you one more that DIDN'T involve ticks....

1973 DCI Prelims

Hawthorne Muchachos

GE M&M - 9.1 (5th)

GE Perc - 9.1 (2nd)

GE Brass - 9.1 (8th)

Total GE - 27.3 (3rd)

1973 DCI Finals

GE M&M - 8.9 (8th)

GE Perc - 8.1 (7th)

GE Brass - 8.7 (8th)

Total GE - 25.7 (9th)

1.6 lost in total GE overnight (1 point in percussion alone). A big reason why they dropped from 5th overall in prelims to 8th in finals.

As I said in my OP: What does it all mean? Not a heckuva lot. However, it does make for interesting discussion!

Rick -

One of the factors back then (I think) came from the personalities of the folks with the pencils - or maybe it simply hadn't been coached out of them (although there was an urban legend that Donald Angelica controlled the judging community like marionettes).

I'll use a personal recollection to illustrate - Bayonne in '78 (my first year) was rolling into Denver with a pretty good brass line during a year when there were a lot of really good lines. We'd been head to head with Spirit on tour going through the South and both lines were averaging about a 14.0 (out of 15) in field brass.

The corps had to go on 24 hours before the block in prelims due to the 1977 DQ. To say it made us nervous was a bit of an understatement - it's hard to maintain spreads during a 2 hr show when lines are good - maintaining for 24 hrs is tough.

Sandra Opie, probably my personal favorite brass judge (of all times) when it came to performance and Musical Analysis, gave the line a 12.6 at prelims. I was ready to throw myself off the wall at Mile High Stadium (I think prelims may actually have been in Boulder so forgive me). I figured we were toast.

24 hours later? BD had the same 12.6.

What one person thought was a tic back then wasn't always consistent with other people's tics, and I think there may have been less pressure for the same results over and over again.

I was judging a band show in Eastern Md a couple of decades ago and the chief judge came to me with the recaps of the previous night and started talking to me about which spreads he considered accurate and which he thought were less so. I politely asked him to get away from me.

You can coach for consistency, or in Sandra's case (or Roger Olsen, or Cecil Austin, Dr. Baggs, Jim Prime Sr, et al.) you can get out of the way and observe greatness (no, I'm not including myself with those folks - in my case you could just get out of the way).

It was tougher to predict, but a young brass guy could learn a lot talking to those folks.

Still have great judges out there on tour today - but I wonder if they're allowed to express themselves to the degree that existed BITD, and if we would be okay with it if they were.

Great topic. BTW my daughter is aging out with Crossmen this year - she wasn't born yet when Kevin started there in '91.

The time do fly...

Edited February 27, 2015 by rayfallon

[IllianaLancerContra]

Rick -

One of the factors back then (I think) came from the personalities of the folks with the pencils - or maybe it simply hadn't been coached out of them (although there was an urban legend that Donald Angelica controlled the judging community like marionettes).

I'll use a personal recollection to illustrate - Bayonne in '78 (my first year) was rolling into Denver with a pretty good brass line during a year when there were a lot of really good lines. We'd been head to head with Spirit on tour going through the South and both lines were averaging about a 14.0 (out of 15) in field brass.

The corps had to go on 24 hours before the block in prelims due to the 1977 DQ. To say it made us nervous was a bit of an understatement - it's hard to maintain spreads during a 2 hr show when lines are good - maintaining for 24 hrs is tough.

Sandra Opie, probably my personal favorite brass judge (of all times) when it came to performance and Musical Analysis, gave the line a 12.6 at prelims. I was ready to throw myself off the wall at Mile High Stadium (I think prelims may actually have been in Boulder so forgive me). I figured we were toast.

24 hours later? BD had the same 12.6.

What one person thought was a tic back then wasn't always consistent with other people's tics, and I think there may have been less pressure for the same results over and over again.

I was judging a band show in Eastern Md a couple of decades ago and the chief judge came to me with the recaps of the previous night and started talking to me about which spreads he considered accurate and which he thought were less so. I politely asked him to get away from me.

You can coach for consistency, or in Sandra's case (or Roger Olsen, or Cecil Austin, Dr. Baggs, Jim Prime Sr, et al.) you can get out of the way and observe greatness (no, I'm not including myself with those folks - in my case you could just get out of the way).

It was tougher to predict, but a young brass guy could learn a lot talking to those folks.

Still have great judges out there on tour today - but I wonder if they're allowed to express themselves to the degree that existed BITD, and if we would be okay with it if they were.

Great topic. BTW my daughter is aging out with Crossmen this year - she wasn't born yet when Kevin started there in '91.

The time do fly...

I would respectfully add Rick Maass to that list of judges that called it like he saw it.

[rayfallon]

I would respectfully add Rick Maass to that list of judges that called it like he saw it.

Absolutely - it was a partial stream of semi-consciousness list at best.

The thing is that everyone called it as they saw it back then, but the folks I mentioned, now including Rick as you point out, saw it a little better than some of the others.

My opinion, of course. And there were lots more - I was a young (26 yo) brass instructor back in those days when you maybe had 2 total brass guys or girls on tour - before "brass staffs"

You'll see I don't mention the great percussion or visual folks.

[lindap]

Why I Love Recaps (And Occasionally Miss Ticks)

Perhaps replace Love with like and replace Miss Ticks with Ms Ticks. I started judging T&P July 1976 and judged marching tics September for Junior C, D or E. At that level they needed more build up than put down. So I quit judging. That's me. Judged local winter guard shows in the early 1980's when the sheets made sense based on size and ability. That's me.

[GUARDLING]

Rick -

One of the factors back then (I think) came from the personalities of the folks with the pencils - or maybe it simply hadn't been coached out of them (although there was an urban legend that Donald Angelica controlled the judging community like marionettes).

I'll use a personal recollection to illustrate - Bayonne in '78 (my first year) was rolling into Denver with a pretty good brass line during a year when there were a lot of really good lines. We'd been head to head with Spirit on tour going through the South and both lines were averaging about a 14.0 (out of 15) in field brass.

The corps had to go on 24 hours before the block in prelims due to the 1977 DQ. To say it made us nervous was a bit of an understatement - it's hard to maintain spreads during a 2 hr show when lines are good - maintaining for 24 hrs is tough.

Sandra Opie, probably my personal favorite brass judge (of all times) when it came to performance and Musical Analysis, gave the line a 12.6 at prelims. I was ready to throw myself off the wall at Mile High Stadium (I think prelims may actually have been in Boulder so forgive me). I figured we were toast.

24 hours later? BD had the same 12.6.

What one person thought was a tic back then wasn't always consistent with other people's tics, and I think there may have been less pressure for the same results over and over again.

I was judging a band show in Eastern Md a couple of decades ago and the chief judge came to me with the recaps of the previous night and started talking to me about which spreads he considered accurate and which he thought were less so. I politely asked him to get away from me.

You can coach for consistency, or in Sandra's case (or Roger Olsen, or Cecil Austin, Dr. Baggs, Jim Prime Sr, et al.) you can get out of the way and observe greatness (no, I'm not including myself with those folks - in my case you could just get out of the way).

It was tougher to predict, but a young brass guy could learn a lot talking to those folks.

Still have great judges out there on tour today - but I wonder if they're allowed to express themselves to the degree that existed BITD, and if we would be okay with it if they were.

Great topic. BTW my daughter is aging out with Crossmen this year - she wasn't born yet when Kevin started there in '91.

The time do fly...

There certainly were some greats for sure and I might even include you in there Ray BUT I will also say as far as expression, the difference is today I believe there is more accountability BITD often it was just the judges word and although there might be a hair pullin and protests, a judge won out OR one learned how to play that game. Often judging didnt make a whole lot of sense and hard to work off of. I basically remember guessing who would be on a panel at the end and pretty much putting my eggs in that basket. Which often paid off.

Edited February 28, 2015 by GUARDLING