BRASSO

bad boy, bad boy... what 'cha gonna do when they come for you,.. bad boy ,bad boy. ( haha!)

As to your question above on integration in the military, historically the military has been a step or two ahead of the US society at large when it came to integrating itself involving blacks and whites. This is because whites and blacks HAD to be more quickly assimilated into the ranks so as to provide a more cohesive, disciplined unit. This is NOT to say that full integration was smooth and without incidents. Just that the military was a decade ahead of the American society at large in integration efforts between black and whites. By the early 60's the US Military was already in full integration mode while some parts of the country were still strongly resisting integration efforts. How did this effect Drum Corps ranks ? Drum Corps were patterned after military components. As such, many ( not all ) of the Drum Corps were way ahead of the curve in the time line and were likewise becoming more integrated faster than American Society at large. Drum Corps were local neighborhood based units, and these units tended to reflect the demographc percentages of their parish's, communities, neighborhoods, etc from where the Corps came from. When the race riots took place in the 60's in many cities, the Corps looked to themselves as beacons in the storm, and most blacks and whites in Corps kept their composure and helped one another through the turmoil. There were definately " turf " battles in the 50's and 60's.... but it was between Corps, not between blacks and whites within Corps, nor among Corps. Despite the racial strife swirling in the 50's and 60's, blacks and whites in Drum Corps got along fine with one another during this time frame. It is something that Drum Corps can be proud of.

I could accept this premise If I thought that the show designer was " experimenting " with the instruments and the sound and to see if " the crowd gets energized " in the new presentation, and....." if there was negativity to the concept then it's likely the Corps won't do it again "......... My thoughts would be that the show designer already knows what the sound and effect will be. There is no real, genuine " experimentation " at all. And since when did a show designer decide if something was going to be kept or not based upon an audience reponse ? This pre show " experimentation " is not to gauge the receptivity of the audiiences at all. The notion that if there is a lukewarm or negative vibe from the audiences with the pre show concept, or with instrumentation then it would be scrapped is naive. No.... there is no genuine experimentation in the pre show concept that is designed to see how audiences react. It is a way for show designers to a) see if the sales pitches from equipment Mfg's are right or not and, who knows, maybe get a hefty Finders Fee if new equipment is eventually bought by Corps to use in shows 2 ) show the judges what the show designer has up his sleeve and/ or 3 ) slowly but surely ease into fruition their show style concepts they've had cooked up for several years now, and can't wait to put on the field for the judges to judge in a year or two.

It's not just Drum Corps geography, sense of place, etc with the new marchers either. I know lots of people that have lived in Boston Ma. all their lives and they couldn't find Abington, Ma. ( on your avatar ) without a map or tell us what the town is known for to save themselves.

I understand better now where you're coming from. Woodwinds are coming to on- the- field- competition DCI ( my opinion ). However, probably not for awhile, as they'll need to rejigger the judging captions. Most of the current music judges that judge DCI come from the brass or percussion side of things with their experience, knowledge, qualifications . Most would not be adequate at judging the woodwinds. So until DCI figures out how to judge woodwinds on the field, they'll go slowly with this in my opinion. (I'm not sure what these current judge's qualifications are to judge the singing voice, electric guitars either... but that's for another day, another thread perhaps. )

competitions close to home,... where family, relatives, friends, local townspeople, civic leaders, etc get to see the local units perform each weekend, and keeping costs down for everyone. What a wonderful concept.

I understand this need to accept anything with a laisse faire attitude on whatever DCI decides to do or allow on the field. There' s apparently a wide spread acceptance of the " anything goes " position from what I'm gathering. And that's fine I suppose. I was just curious if this " anythng goes " position extends to literally ANYTHING in instrumentation. I mean, could DCI expect acceptance of( say) accordians as featured instruments ? Kazoos ? Sitars ? Harps ? What if DCI decided that woodwinds should become the featured instruments, and brass lines were cut down to 20 in total... as back up instrument acompaniments to the woodwinds ? Do the " anything goes" trusting and accepting fans have ANY line on instrumentation that would get their attention to ask.... " hey, wait up just a minute.... just where the heck are you going with this" ? or is this " anything goes " position on intrumentation DCI has adopted pretty much ok with everyone ? in other words, you're pretty content to just sit back and watch it all " evolve " before your very eyes ? ( or as some might posit... " disappear, right before your very eyes " ? )

It's moments like this, that DCP becomes something it's critics will never understand. it's their loss, not ours, for not being here to hear of stories like this. It is priceless. To not have heard of things like this would be a loss of this activities fine moments. Thanks for sharing this interesting event that brought your Corps together in such an inspirational way, TomPeashey.

If the foxes invade the hen house and the hens are stripped bare of protections from invasion, would you say that the hens stripped bare of protections are a threat to the foxes that came into the cages,... or the other way around ?

There are " no limits on what instruments an orchestra or rock band can use whenever they want " ? That's like saying "there are no limits to what instruments a homicidal maniac can use whenever they want " Look... common sense tells us that no orchestra is going to make permanent in their season the use of rock band instruments or rock singers. Nor would a rock band make permanent use of opera singers in their shows. Sure, they COULD do it. If they were completely insane, or had a death wish.

True. And of course we'd never read or hear from that school that they promote or support " diversity " either. And if they did, that would be a false claim as well. So mostly, these schools don't mention " diversity "..... and when they do, they are referring to minority outreach programs and such..., not gender outreach programs for gender " diversity ". That would give the patrons , alums, students, parents, boards of trustees, etc of that school the willies.

If the Rotary Club had 30 clubs and 2 of them excluded females, then " yes" I think we could still say that The Rotary Club was an exclusionary organization, and had not advanced all that much in the " diversity " area. If we had 30 schools in a school district with 2 of those schools exclusionary of blacks where the schools really made it clear that the blacks could come, but they were not really welcomed in numbers, would we say that the schools in that school district support and promote " diversity " ? I don't think that school district could make that claim, frankly.

Well, I wasn't responding to ( as you said ) " to anyone in an official capacity make a claim of MORE diversity. I responded to the OP that created this thread.... in his 3rd paragraph of his introductory comments..... ( quote ) " I figured maybe Drum Corps didn't use to be as diverse as it is today ". So I took the liberty to point out that Drum Corps is not more diverse than earlier periods..... and pointed out reasons for suck lack of advances in the diversity realm. I used The Cavaliers and the Madison Scouts as 2 units that are exclusionary to females to bolster the position that DCI has not changed much at all in the " diversity " area, and why Blacks participate in Drum Corps today at much smaller percentage numbers than in earlier eras. The comments were made to enlighten the OP that his belief that Drum Corps is more diverse today than in earlier eras is really an incorrect assumption and perception.

Actually, no, 84BDsop, I am not making the claim that " DCI isn't as diverse as I'D like." I am simply stating that DCI does not " look like America ".... and it does have 2 of it's Charter Member Corps that are exclusionary on gender. That in of itself makes any claim of providing more " diversity " simply not plausable, nor believable. DCI can not allow 2 Corps to essentially exclude 51% of the American population from full participation and then claim that it fosters " diversity ". And again let me state, I support the right for Corps to maintain their traditions and remain All Male if that is their choice. African Americans participated in both predominently all black Corps and fully integrated Corps well before integration took full hold in America. When we found so called All Black Corps, we really found that they almost always had some whites in their Corps as well. The reason they were mostly all black was because they came from mostly all black neighborhoods. Corps that came from communities and neighborhoods that had more blacks and whites reflected that in their Corps as well. The Bridgemen thus had a large cross section of both blacks and whites in their Corps because they were a Corps that had blacks and whites in the St. Andews parish of Bayonne from where they started. Blacks participated more in Drum Corps in the 60's and 70's because Corps back then had a visible presence in many large cities. That has essentially disappeared. Blacks still make up a large demographic in the cities. They did not leave. Corps did. Corps moved outward to the suburbs. Thus, to no surprise, blacks as a percentage of marchers overall in DCI is LESS today than when DCI started.

Exactly. Despite the fact that America has changed and offers a much more " diverse" populace in the US than say 30-40 years ago, DCI has shown little to no advances regarding more " diversity " among it's ranks. In fact, a compelling argument can be made that DCI is actually LESS diverse today than it was back in the first year of it's inception in the early 1970's.

You are probaby correct that an audience member provides an implicit right to be filmed or photographed in a public setting with a purchase of a ticket to a public event. I wonder how much revenue is truly lost however when a guy or gal take their hand held little Sony Cam to tape a show from row 39 with noise and talking and the moving, shaking hands on the Cam, etc.. I think this is much to do about nothing, really. Has anybody watched these You Tube videos of portions of Corps shows ? They mostly suck. If anyone thinks that these " pirates " tapes cut into the Corps CD and DVD sales, well, I just would have to see the data that suggests that these mostly crappy home made tapes do any financial damage at all. Good grief, it's not like they are making master copies and selling hundreds or thousands of these grainy crappy tapes around the country. Unless somebody can show me data that DCI Corps are losing revenue from these hand held video clips, I'd say it's all a little silly to get worked up over, really.

Until The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts have a DCI unit that looks more like America, how can one say that DCI has MORE diversity ? I'm not critical of The Cavaliers and the Madison Scouts remaining " All Male ". I think it is their choice, their perogative, and perfectly appropriate in a free society for an organization to want to retain it's preference for Males Only. In this politically correct era it is refeshing that these 2 Corps have been able to retain their traditional preference as to who they want to associate with, and to do so freely and openly. That said, it is inconceivable that one can then make a claim that DCI has MORE diversity than other youth groups, sports, other enterprises, etc when half the population is excluded from membership to two of DCI's organization's charter member Corps. Corps that discriminate on gender, are not inclusionary, they are, in fact, exclusionary. Thus, there can be no legitimate claim of " diversity ". Diversity requires inclusionary membership. So, while I applaud The Cavaliers and the Madison Scouts quest to remain All Male, it does disabuse us of the notion that DCI offers MORE diversity. An objective analysis would show it does not pass the most basic test of diversity when females are either excluded or not really welcomed to participate at numbers that reflect their numbers in American society at large. Additionally, there is no current DCI Corps today that has membership numbers of African- Americans that approaches the numbers one routinely found in DCI Corps in previous eras. For Instance, the Bridgemen from Bayonne, New Jersey were a top Corps in the early developmental years of DCI in the 70's early 80's. Their percentage of African -Americans as a percentage of marchers was in the double digit percentile level. When we contrast that with the DCI Corps of today, we find that there is no Corps today in DCI that has as a percentage of marchers a percentile that rises to double digit levels. Almost all DCI Corps of today are underrepresented with African- American marchers. The Corps that APPEARS to have more African- American marchers than any other World Class Corps seems to be the current DCI Champion, the Blue Devils. But this is just my personal observation, more than verifiable data. In pre DCI days, there were many more African-Americans participating in Corps as a percentage of overall marchers. Some units, located almost entirely from large cities, were made up almost entirely of African- Americans. We also had " All Girl " Corps, and Corps that were primarily Asian- American. I could be wrong, but I believe that we have more Asian- Americans participating in DCI as a percentage of marchers, than DCI has had in previous eras. I also believe DCI has more of it's marchers whose home is abroad, rather than the US. I believe DCI has more Caucasians marching as a percentage of marchers than at any time before in it's history. Again, this would be just from my unobjective, personal observation, nothing that could be verified. But DCI does appear more " white " than in previous eras. It also demographically appears to have more marchers from the South US and Southwestern US than in previous eras as a percentage of location., and as a result there may be more Latinos marching than perhaps earller eras. I also think DCI has more affluent, more higher education percentile marchers, and more rural, more small town, more suburban marchers as a higher percentage of overall participants than perhaps in earlier DCI eras. ...... anyway, that would be my thoughts on diversity ( or lack thereof ) and demographic make up of DCI.

Int has always been from the middle of nowhere.

Lets reverse this for a second..... should DCI, Corps, marchers have the right to film audiences ? Based upon the fact that most here believe that audience members should not have the right to filming of Corps, I would assume that likewise they would be just as vehemently opposed to DCI or their afiliates taking unauthorized film of audiences without the audience's permission. But sometimes I 'm surprised by both the sentiments and the reasoning on here. It's not always what I think it would ( should ) be. So, here's the question.... should audiences privacy be protected ? Should the filming of audiences without the expressed consent of audiences at DCI shows and events be considered an invasion of privacy and deemed ilegal at DCI shows and DCI events ? DCI does use this audience footage in promotional and in a commercial manner. They do make money off the paying customer to the DCI event in this repect. It's done without the paying customer's permission. And the customer not only has an invasion of their privacy without their consent taking place, they also receive no royalties from the unsolicited filming of themselves by DCI. In keeping with the need to protect the commercial interests of DCI and member Corps and making film of Corps illegal, I would likewise be in favor of the rights of audience members be protected from unsolicited, unauthorized, filming of them, and for this to be deemed illegal as well at all DCI shows and events. Agree ? Disagree ? And why ?

Oh sure, we've all met people like this.I once met a guy at a wedding reception years ago. He told me he did " Drum Corps". I told him " I once did too ". I told him my " Drum Corps " name. He told me his. He had heard of mine,but I had not heard of his. He said he played " snare drum ".I told him " soprano bugle". He said " THAT's not " Drum Corps ". I looked confused and responded " huh ? ". He said he marched in" a Fife and Drum Corps in Connecticut" He said it was one of the oldest " Drum Corps " in America, dating back to around 1797 and they still competed, did shows, parades and exhibitions.. He went on to tell me that " REAL Drum Corps don't have bugles, they have Fifes ". He was pretty adamant about this fact, I could tell. So I didn't argue with him. What would be the point ? For him, " Drum Corps " went off the track when it " replaced the fife with the bugle ". So in his view, the activity went bad some time in the 18th century. But hey... don't laugh. He might be on to something. He might be finding some support for his views in the future, believe it or not. Maybe right here on DCP too. A " fife " is afterall a woodwind instrument. And the " bugle " is gone. So who knows, maybe we'll eventually come full circle some time after the next American Revolutionary War, and we'll finally have real " Drum Corps " once again.

I hear you, but I do think that the activity is defined by instrumentation. Maybe I'm wrong, but if you showed up at a DCI Competition after being away for several years and you saw on the field ( say ) 200 dancers, 15 singers, 7 piccolo players, one snare drummer, one bass drummer, 1 trumpet player, and a conductor in a clown's costume..... and found out the remaining 5 musical troupes were going to be like that, that you would not be saying then that " the activity is not defined by instrumentation"...and that what you were witnessing was still " Drum Corps" and that you'd be ok with it. Then again, maybe when the single snare drummer started his pre show intro, you'd be able to let your mind drift and you'd picture those kids discussing" the family feelings of it all "... and " togetherness of it all" and so forth,, and that would be enough for you. If so, you'd be a better man than I...... that's because in my view, it IS about" the instrumentation ".. just as much as it is about " family " and " togetherness", etc, and all these other wondefrul things that the activity generates primarily off the field of competition for these participants.

I understand your point, but it sort of drifts away from the thread that asks us " could the new pre show rule lead to woodwinds ? " Your point about " family " and " togetherness " is of course right on the money. That said, your comments could just as easily been said by an alumnus of the Ohio State Buckeyes Marching Band reminiscing about his travels with his Band family in the 4 years of 1976- 1980 and their memorable experience on trips to games, functions, parades, etc including the Rose Bowl parade, game, and what not.

GOOD GRIEF...., they don't mix the rock band and the symphony FOREVER. The Rock Band and Symphony come togther on a rare occasion to do a gig together and then they go their separate ways. The rock band keeps it's identity and so doesn't the symphony..... all intact. Now, if the symphony went home and took the bass guitarist, the lead singer, and drummer with them and told their symphony orchestra season ticket patrons that henceforth these 3 would be featured in all the upcoming symphony shows for 2 years in an " anything goes", format,... you can bet your life that all hell would break loose with the Symphony patrons, and they'd scream bloody blue murder and DEMANDING " restrictions" to that...... or else! And you KNOW it. There is no way on God's green earth the symphony orchestra conductor and symphony orchestra producers would allow the permanent use of a rock singer, bass guitarist, rock drummer into their fold. Nor would rock fans want their favorite rock band to start using oboes, piccolos, opera singers, etc on a permanent basis. If A rock band announced that they would, booing would be the least of that rock band's concerns. The members of that rock band would all need bullet proof vests and 24 hour armed security. And you KNOW this to be true, as well.

I do think you've made a good case here. You got me to thinking... and you could be right on this re. 1990.

Good points. Some might argue that adding woodwinds would be like instead of having vanilla yogurt OR chocolate ice cream as a dessert offering, it would be like taking vanilla yoghurt and chocolate ice cream, mixing it together in a bowl, freezing and thawing it, and then making it the only thing now on the dessert menu and then hearing.... " Com'on, eat up. It'll be good for you. Plus, the chef and the kids in the back worked long and hard on the new concoction. Just give it a chance. You'll love it". If that's the option, I think I'll do a pass, take an after dinner mint, and ask the waitor for the check, thank you very much.