BRASSO

" Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source for learning " ....(.Bill Gates, Founder of Microsoft) " I made some mistakes in my early Drama Writing. I thought the Drama was when I could get my actors to cry. But true Drama is when the audience cries ".....( Frank Capra, Movie Director ) " The audience is the most revered member of the theatre. Without an audience, there is no theatre. Every technique learned bythe actor, every curtain call, every flat on the stage, every careful analysis by the Director, every coordinated scene is for the enjoyment of the audience. They are our guests, our evaluators , and the last spoke in the wheel which can then begn to roll. They make the performance meaningful ". ( Viola Spolin, Playwright, Drama Teacher ) " Right or wrong, the customer is AWAYS right " ( Marshall Field, Retail Clothng Merchandiser ) " The reason for my continued success ? The audience. " ( John Williams, Music Composer, Conductor ) " Never treat the audience as customers, always as partners " ( James Stewart, Actor )

It's really pretty easy to compare the degree of changes in basketball ( and other sports ) with Drum Corps changes. Simply watch a tape from 1954 and a tape from 2007 in these competitive activities. The 1954 basketball game for example will look different on the tape than the basketball game showed from 2007. ( and I'm not referring to the color of the skin here of the majority of players on the court in the tapes either, as it's acknowledged that this has perhaps been NBA basketball's single biggest transformational change since' 54 ). But then watch a tape of a Drum Corps Nationals Championship from 1954 with that of 2007 DCI World Championships. The breadth and DEGREE of changes from 1954 to 2007 in Corps is much deeper, much wider than that of NBA basketball game changes between 1954 and 2007. It would be pretty obvious to everyone that looked at this objectively too. I don't think it's possible to refute the fact that the changes in Corps from 1954 to 2007 pretty much DWARF those changes made in NBA basketball from 1954 to 2007, if we looked at the tapes. And Corps have changed more than all the other sports as well.

And speaking of the ABA, they utilized the same size and weight basketball. But the ABA did something considered REALLY radical to the purists wth the basketball...... they made it multi- colored. That brought a howl. Imagine that. A change in COLOR only, brought a howl. And when the ABA fnally was absorbed by the NBA, the first thing the NBA did was to scrap the multi- colored basketball and return to the same single color brown basketball used from pretty much the invention of the game itself by Dr. Naismith many years earlier. As a matter of fact, the basketball utilized today is sturdier and durable for sure, but for all intents and purposes, the basketball ( or puck, or baseball, or soccer ball, or football) has changed very little as the main equipment used in these sports since 1954. Now as for the brass instruments ( and other instruments used in competition )used in Drum Corps 1954, and today in 2009, 2010...... well, need I say more regarding how much has REALLY changed here by comparison ?

Nice analysis. I credit you with that. However, If we stick with the SAME timelines between NBA, NHL, MLB, College Football, hockey, soccer and.......Drum and Bugle Corps, we will see that the changes in Drum and Bugle Corps dwarf those of ANY of these other sports. Not just cosmetic changes. But substantive, transformational ( some would argue, " radical " ) changes that involved fundamental changes in such things as equipment used in competition, rules of engagement, how they are judged ( umped, ref'd ), length of time of competition, what is allowed ( and not allowed ) on the feld of competition, numbers of accepted marchers ( or players ) in competition, and many , many other changes in Drum and Bugle Corps over that of any of these sports. If we use your timeline..... 1954 to today, the changes in basketball, football, baseball, soccer, hockey and so forth are minor compared with the changes in Drum and Bugle Corps. For example : look at a tape of baseball in 1954.... then 2009 look at a tape of hockey in 1954.........then 2009 look at a tape of soccer in 1954.........then 2009 look at a tape of basketball in 1954....then 2009 look at a tape of football in 1954........then 2009 look at a tape of Drum Corps in 1954...then 2009. Once we engage in this timeline comparison, and watch the tapes comparisons, it's hard not to conclude that any of these activities has changed more transformationally than the Drum and Bugle Corps.

I have nothing against DCI music arrangers from time to time wanting to resurrect some obtuse composition from some obscure composer and bring it to new life via Drum Corps. But they HAVE to realize that most people understand that there is a valid reason why the composer's composition is " obscure " to begin with, and that there are risks inherent in trying to bring unpopular obscurity to life yet AGAIN....via Drum Corps audiences.

The best ideas for change rarely spring from the top of organizations. They almost always spring from below. Maybe the Colonists should have just trusted King George just a little bit more. He was afterall, King, and he knew what was needed in the Brittish Empire more than those pesky, peasant- farmers of his that never ran much of anything and were always complainng about this or that.

So the logic at work here in your opinion is that if a person who might have marched once says " synths arn't real Drum Corps ", those comments do not have " legitimacy", because that poster hasn't " sat on a DCI Board or have been the Director of a Drum and Bugle Corps" ? What if the " Director of a Drum and Bugle Corps" or someone who once " sat on the DCI Board of Directors " decided that saxophones could be used in DCI Field competitions ? Would the " legitimacy " of their lofty position give them your unwavering support ? That they'd know what's best for both the activity a whole ,as well as knowing what's best for you as a fan ?

The very WORST thing we could do is try and shield our youth from criticisims.... even unjust criticisms. If all we want to do is have them hear the positives, eventually the applause will ineviteably be seen by our youth as hollow, phoney, and worse yet........... meaningless.

I'd agree with this as well. We've had Corps Directors, Staff on here from time to time ( even from Corps that discourage their members from coming on here). Even former judges are on here. And DCP probably has a much higher group of posters that have participated on the field of competion, than we'd see on college sports fans team discussion boards, where most of the fans who post there never played that sport at the college level that they're commenting on. My central point however was two fold : 1) to understand that DCP is tame compared to what is allowed to be posted on sports team's message boards ( where the criticisms can be no holds barred brutal, harsh, and VERY personal ). And........2) any marcher on here who reads about criticism about their Corps, or DCI in general, etc should just remember that it's just somebody's opinion. No more, no less. Most, if not ALL the criticisms on here are not directed at the marchers either. So they shouldn't take any of the criticisms personally. ( and to the notion that unless you've served on the DCI Board of Directors, or run a DCI Corps, then you're comments are not worthhile... well DCP would have maybe 3 posters who could talk to one another on here and take stock in what the other two were saying). What the activity needs is MORE input..... MORE transparancy..... MORE responses to inquiries for judging caption explanations and rationales for what judges do. From the judges themselves. Coaches, umpires, refs, explain themselves all the time after a game. When was the last time, judges gave a post Finals press interview for the fans about what they liked and did not like about show performances ? We know. Never. They score... then get out quickly and disappear until next year. The biggest cure for ignorance and misinformation is........... education. But you can't have enlightement of what is being done, if it's being done with little to no explanation or rationale to the public as to WHY there is merit in the policies implemented. ( Well, this is my 2 cents worth anyway )

A famous quote on criticisms ( and maybe a good reminder ) : " It is not the critic who counts : not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiently, who errs and comes up short again and again, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end,the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory, nor defeat. " ( Theodore Roosevelt)

Well said. It's probably a good thing to remind posters from time to time that young fans (12,13) are on here too, and some are really excited about what they see and hear ( as we all were when we looked with big eyes on the majestic, wonderful spectacle we call " DCI " for te 1st time. And likewise, for marchers and staff to keep in mind that criticism..... even totally unjust criticsm..... is a part of life. And how we deal with criticism defines our resiliancy, our courage, our determination to push on, regardless of criticisms from others.

DCP SHOULD get credit though. It balances well free expression and censorship. If a college QB has a sub par football game, afterwards that teams fans sports message board will be fiiled up routinely with fans saying.... " Man, our QB sucks "..... our.... " get rid of the staff. They really suck for putting that crap out on the field "...... " their ( or our ) fans are pitiful , they suck "........ and so forth. Happens ALL the time. By contrast ( and for some perspectrive )can you imagine if in DCI, a soloist from a Corps fraked a note, and a poster on here commented, "That soloist really sucks "...... or..." that Corps really sucks"..... or..." get rid of the Corps staff. They really suck for putting that crap out on the field"...... or " fans of_ Corps really suck " and so forth ? Well, you just know it would be delted as many people here would just about have a stroke if that was said and then allowed to remain on DCP. For perspective, DCP is as tame as it comes compared to 99% of the thousands of sports fans boards out there. ( and keep in mind, the college players are sometimes younger than some of the DCI marchers too ) Even the Uconn Women's Basketball team has MUCH worse things said about them on Women College Basketball discussion boards ( and somewhat surprsingly with much of the nasty things said by women too ) than almost ANYTHING said about a DCI Corps, or marchers, or other fans, etc here on DCP.

Sounds like you've just described DCP here( correctly, in my view ) as just like all of the thousands of sports and sport's teams fans message boards in America. ( except perhaps that those sports fans team discussion boards are way... WAAAY.... more critical of their team, players, coaches, commisioners, owners, refs, other teams, other fans, etc than DCP could EVER be)

DCA has become DCI " lite". Not that there's anything wrong with that.

" No".... I don't think the majority of DCI Directors today would favor woodwinds in their Corps. That said, do you think the majority of the 1979 DCI Directors were in favor of synths, narration, guitars, singing, etc in 1979 ? .......and 2nd question : do you think the majority of 1979 DCI directors would have believed you back in 1979 if you told them that by 2009 Corps would be approved to have synths, narration, singing, and guitars ? It's probably not a question of " if " with woodwinds. It's probably more like a simple question of " when ".( lets not forget, we already have woodwinds in DCI competitions ( I&E ). The notion that woodwinds won't eventually find their way onto the DCI field of competition as well really seems a bit naive to me ....but who knows. we'll see)

Watch NBC ( Leno, O'Brien, Couric, etc,...) They make things up and can be funny.

If people are " very happy with the way it is now" ( which is fine ), keep in mind that in 10, 20, 30 years, DCI will bear no resemblance at all to what makes you " very happy with the way it is now ".( if DCI history teaches us anything at all)

a picture says a thousand words..... ( well,..... usually anyway )

Even the TIME on the field of competition in DCI has changed between that of 1979 and 2007. Corps in competition in 1979 were judged longer as their show performance was considerably longer than in 2007. The number of quarters and periods, and the minutes in the quarters and periods have not changed in the NHL, NBA, NHL..... and baseball still goes nine innings..... and the puck, baseball, football, basketball ( except Women's basketball) are all the same in 2007 as they were in 1979. The instruments of " battle " used in 1979 DCI however bear little resemblance to that of 2007 used for competition. Again, it's just " different ", much more so than the changes that sports have undergone in the intervening 30 years. Sports have changed somewhat, but not the radical transformations, alterations, incantations, and permutations that DCI units have undergone in the last 30 years. And you are correct, the football analysts would be right if they were to say that there is really not that much difference between the game of football in 1979 and that of 2007 ( except for the overall speed and size of the players and a few other minor changes and whatnot, but nothing all that radical, really)

Agree. It's not so much WHAT is being played, but HOW. I also agree it's all a matter of preference when we watch and listen to the music of 1979 and that of 2007. I personally think more of the music in the Top 12 of 1979 is more " hummable " than that of 2007. But it's all so " different " as others have correctly said too. I can plug in a tape of 1979 Super Bowl Game between Dallas Cowboys vs. Pittsburgh Steelers and compare with the Super Bowl in 2007 between the NY Giants vs. the New England Patriots, and much of the game itself has changed very little. Same as watching the 1979 NHL Stanley Cup matchup between the NY Rangers vs. Montreal Canadiens with that of the 2007 NHL Stanley Cup matchup between the Anaheim Ducks vs. the Ottawa Senators. ( same with NBA, MLB, World Soccer Federation etc Championships ) These 1979 Championships don't look and sound the same as 2007 . As a matter of fact, The 1979 DCI Championships and the 2007 DCI Championships bear very little resemblance at all to one another. It is just " different ". Much different. ( notice I do not say one is " better", as this is a matter of preference)

I agree with the position that in the grand scheme of things, what is said on this board is not all that important. I'd tell people not to sweat it. As for kids having to " put up with awful comments ", I might remind folks that kids at a similar age are not only hearing " awful comments " daily ( like..." we are going to kill you ") but they are subjected to war zone incoming mortar fire, road side bombs, sniper fire, suicide bomber attacks from out of nowhere, blood and gore, and unspeakable conditions in gawdawful sickening places that haunts the mind. DCI, by contrast,... is Summer Music and Dance Camp. Any participant should be able to handle a contrarian view expressed from time to time. These kids are lucky and fortunate beyond belief to be doing what they are doing at their age in the summer. And lets not forget what allows them the continued freedom and liberty to " put on a show for YOU " in the summer. ( ' Just wanted to add perhaps some needed perspective on all this. )

and we all know that college coaches and players can't stand the bashing that takes place on college sports message boards. And when they go into stadiums or basketball arena's on the road and someone in the stands says a harsh word, or even heaven forbid .....boo...... they swear that they'll just never, never, EVER go back to those stadiums and arenas ever again. The worst thing that could happen to a trumpet player or a guard is to hear something not very complimentary. Their feelings could be bruised. Thus, it's probably a good idea to avoid places where they might hear things that are not very positive. This way, their feelings won't be hurt.

Mr. Hopkins, The Cadets Director, ( on another thread here) is struggling to find out why fans do not seem to be responding to Corps shows as they used to. He says as much on his recent post on his blog. After reading about how at least one " high level, world class staff " makes fun of fans, it seems we may have some insight as to perhaps one one reason why more and more fans seem increasingy disconnected from some staffs that are in charge of these shows. DCI fans are a diverse group. DCP is likewise a diverse group. What is appauded ( and complained about ) in DCI audiences is reflected here. It is sad is that at least one staff has such a low regard for people who continue to support the activity with their time, money.... and some with participation. I know of no commercially successful musical artist or show designer that has a low regard for fans. They usually fail commercially with such toxic attitudes.... and some wind up then teaching H. S. or college Band, unfortunately. Such displays of ridicule toward fans of the activity may be one of the things Mr. Hopkins may want to explore as he tries to figure how why these shows designed ny current staffs are not receiving the degree of reception that earlier staffs were able to provide for their members so that they could wow the thousands of fans that supported the activity.

The word " conspire " means in essence that judges get together and make a pact together that no fan friendly show will win a Championship. I don't for a minute believe that judges act in ths fashion. So I hope we can agree that so far on this thread no one has suggested any conspiracy is at work here on the part of judges. The judges are properly ulilizing the DCI adopted tools they have before them to judge Corps.... and unlike theatre......audiences are irrelevent in this DCI enterprise called " DCI judging ". That said, it is unusual that Corps that have the " love " from the 6-12 judges, rarely have the same degree of "love" of thousands across the country that go to these DCI shows. It's insightful that even with the expected home town love, Corps shows that are loved in New Mexico, are loved in Austin, Bloomington, Bristol, or Atlanta. The audiences are a diverse group across a wide spectrum. But the appeal ( or non appeal ) to audiences seems to be universal with a Corps show. And Mr. Hopkins doesn't seem to know why audiences don't seem to be acting with the same degree of " love " for these shows as they used to. And he's trying to figure out why this is. And some posters on DCP have opined on some of the possible reasons for this. And I think that so far, some very plausable reasons for this has been cited on this thread for the reasons why. I personally think DCI went from the " Music Age" of DCI ( early years ) to the " Visual Age "..... and that a proper balance might come back soon, and we'll see more of the Music side return. ( guitar useage might help usher this in as it's hard to run into visual formation with plugged in guitars for example)

My guess, about as many times ( or more ) as the winner being the #1 fan favorite for that year. And the point you're trying to make with this question is......... ?