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Thanks both to Jay and Michael for correcting my spelling of Chris' name. If I would have gotten off my butt and pulled out my book I would have gotten it right! Too tired from lack of sleep and too much beer over the weekend - Go figure! Donna

I know many members of the judging community peruse this site, so I really wonder why no one has chimed in – so I will! EndzoneEric wrote: Kinda borrowing from my original post in this thread, I got to wondering... are the judges trained to reward achievement or punish errors? I know about the "ranking and rating" responsibilities. Ok folks, the name of the game is: Derived Achievement which means the What and the How. What is being done and How it is being done – AT THAT MOMENT. Not What or How it was done last week, last month or even last night – but what is happening at that moment at that contest. Also, please notice the word “Achievement” - it is a build up system, not a break down as in the past with the Tick system. Our responsibility is to: Rank, Rate and Educate. Rank = where they place (1st, 2nd, etc.); Rate = Their score; Educate = Why they got that score in relationship to others and to suggest ways of improving their show. EndzoneEric wrote: It seems that, from body language alone -- and this is PURE SPECULATION -- there are some judges that love to be entertained and to see the corps "throwing down." There are others who appear to be happy to catch the corps doing something wrong. Eric, this is pure speculation – you were watching the judges, but you have no idea what they were reacting to at that specific moment. Each one was focusing on their specific caption at that specific time. As fans, we are looking for entertainment – the judges are looking for the “What + How”. EndzoneEric wrote: I wonder if DCI would ever consider publishing some of the judges' tapes on the Fan Network, maybe even adding an iso-cam at some of the shows. I would be interested to hear what they're saying, and I have a feeling that other people would be as well. Since the corps gets the judges tapes I don’t think this is up to DCI. Maybe you can contact the corps to see if they are willing to share them with you. Not sure that it would happen, but actually, I would like to hear them as well. I could be wrong, but I thought that some of this is on the DVD??? Also, maybe there needs to be an added award given for Most Improved – heck, we had that in Winterguard. My suggestion: just for the heck of it, attend a judging seminar sometime. My organization follows the DCI/WGI philosophy and all judges are taught to be Objective, not Subjective, but the bottom line is – we are human. You (the director, instructor, fan, etc.) may not always agree with our Ranking and Rating, but we are trained to follow the Criteria Reference on the back of the sheets and that is what truly determines the end result.

Michael, I ran into Chris Hardiwetz (sp?) this weekend (we are both members of CSJA) and we had a long discussion about the CAC. I told him how wonderful your performance was and he let me know about all the issues and hard work it took to just try to get it off the ground, much less pull it off. The biggest being to not let the Alum corps interfer with the Jr. Corps - and that is one reason why George and his BOD is against Cadets having an Alum corps next year. I'm not sure that most folks know all the hard work that happens behind the scenes to make something like this happen. You don't just send out an email and hand out some music! BTW, I was really impressed with the check you guys handed to Mr. Warren - WOW - Too cool!

Now, I have said in nearly every post I have written that everyone is entitled to their opinion and I hate when people slam each other...but are you kidding me? Were you at Finals or did you just watch it in the theatre? Was that the only time seeing a show this year? I have been involved in this activity for 10 years before there was a "DCI" and this was one of the greatest years of all time! If you only saw the shows in the theatre, please remember that it was Quaterfinals - while I am sure they had a crowd, the stands would not have been packed. I was there Friday and we were on our feet many times throughout the night. On Saturday the stands were packed and it was loud as hell in there! I am also guessing you didn't read my earlier post from last night which mentioned the crowd reaction to to all the corps. We were on our feet more overall then in our seats! The only "polite applause" anyone received was Cadets - until the end on Saturday. Not quite sure what you are basing all this on - but as someone who was there, it just ain't true!

Not sure who that was Gary. It was very quiet on my side. I would imagine the voices would carry since those bottom windows were open.

Bluecoats were indeed in the bottom 6. They placed 7th on Friday night.

Ryan, I wouldn't say I had a great time, but an interesting one! I really learned some more lessons of life tonight. Lesson 1: I will never, ever attend a show again without someone else to share the experience with, even if that person is a "Newbie"! And I have been able to take 5 "Newbie's" to contests this year who loved them. Each in their own way. Some who have even seen things (as the Corps wanted us to see) that I didn't!!!!! My only guestion Ryan is, was your friend in the audience on Friday? I am only stating my "feeling" of the show from Friday to Saturday, and while I totally agree with the placement, I just felt more emotion, power and strentgh from PR the night before. I am truly surprised your friend could even talk at all by that point because I am not sure I could have! Maybe that is why he " could only utter expletives", I can really imagine what those were!!!! Donna

First and foremost: Congrats to Phantom! They finally got to be the bride!!! How wonderful for them and I think the entire Drum Corps World is very, very happy for them. Now, for the rest of the night (please no hate mail, we all are entitled to our opinion and this is just really my observation of the evening) : I was extremely impressed with the crowd’s reception of Madison. Now those of us that have been around for a while, know that no matter what place there are in, Madison has always been a crowd favorite and we were all so happy to see them back. However, I was very disappointed in the bottom 6 tonight. For some reason, at least in the last few years, it seems like this 6 performs their show the best on Friday. I am not the only one who noticed this - I talked to several that agree. The biggest issue I saw was the colorguards. Folks rushing the counts, or tossing too late, lots of drops, etc. Blue coats were probably the only exception - they really put it all out there. Even my Blue Stars, whose show is my favorite of the year after Crown's, seemed a bit off. Again, just my opinion. SCV did a very nice job tonight and the entire crowd seemed to get behind the "Vanguard" yell. Cadets were the Cadets. What more is there to say?? But then Crown came out, the crowd gave them a standing ovation as soon as they saw the first uniform hit the field (Cadets weren't even close to off yet) and then Crown performed a show that blew everyone away - No lie - Wow Oh Wow!!!! Their guard really stepped up to the plate and nailed everything. I was sitting (actually in the press box) around folks that had not seen this show yet. While I am not a youngster, I am talking folks in 70's/80's, but who have been around this activity for decades and even they were chuckling, clapping and on their feet at the end. As I was leaving the stadium I heard scores of band kids who were talking about that show. Oh how I can't wait to see what they do next year. Now it was Cavies turn. Last night, I thought they marched the h@ll out of that show and really didn't see how they could have improved that drill, but tonight I was stunned at how clean they were. None of us had recovered from Crown's show yet and now we have to deal with this! OMG, we had no idea what to do but sit there with our mouths open and try to breathe. Ok, here come's PR...the crowd respectively clapped along with "Iowa" until Cavies were off, but then immediately got on their feet to welcome Phantom on the field. You could tell that this was the favorite show of the year (with Crown coming in a very close second). Now I love this show. It is probably my most favorite PR show right after New World. But again, I just felt it was a bit off as compared to last night. The end was spectacular and the “I am Spartcus” yell(s) from the crowd were a blast and when the corps yelled, it sent chills down your spine (I mean that in a good way). I was very nervous though that they didn’t pull it off to beat BD. I didn’t stay for scores, drove the hour back to where I was staying so I didn’t have to be disappointed all the way back, but was so happy to see the final result. BD, as I said in previous posts, I still don’t really understand the show and miss the “jazz”. Glad to see PR beat them, but I thought Cavies should have too. It was the first time I ever attended a show by myself (my “date” had to bow out), so I spent more time paying attention to the reaction of the crowd then I usually do. My biggest gripe: While I really felt that this was one of the most supportive crowds I have ever been a part of, I really, really, really am hating the screaming of names or this, that and the other thing during the quiet or down times (unless it is kinda part of the show and everyone does it). While at times it can make us smile, the kids on the field do not hear you - they are way too in the zone to pay attention to anything then what they are there for. It just seems to me that all that is just BS to "make the tape" and have their 15 minutes (actually 1.5 seconds) of fame. Please, let's stop this! Anyway, again just my opinion, but mostly my observation of the evening. Please, please, please – no hate mail!!!! On the flip side: As wound up and excited after last night’s show as I was, I now feel quite a bit down and depressed that it is all over with. It’s like that feeling you get on the evening of Christmas when it’s all over!!! I will tell you though, that in the 30+ years I have attended Finals, this had to be the best year I have ever seen! Thanks for listening. Now I would like to hear the opinions of others that attended. Donna

Last night as The Cadets started their narration something about how Sarah found her happiness a lady behind be shouted, "Who cares?!" I had to laugh out loud!!

Michael, I didn't read your review before my earlier reply, but thank you so much for saying that Crown's Chess show is among your favorites! That too is one of mine and it was that year I fell in love with Crown and have been a huge fan ever since. Having the field used as a Chess Board and the giant Chess pieces moving around was one of the most visually stimulating shows I have ever seen! This year, their "Clair de Lune" is one of the most beautiful horn ballads I think I have ever heard. Winning this year probably won't happen, but we will see it in the next few or less! Your "Corps History in Review" was a delightful article to read and I thank you for sharing it with us. Donna

Exhausted! How could you be exhausted? Just because you "old guys" have been rehearsing all week to put on a performance that most of us could only ever dream of doing - what's up with that? Oh wait, now I know - it was that d@mn walk from the equipment truck to the field and back - why they put the old guys at the very end of the parking lot I'll never figure out - I thought I was walking back to Indy!!!!!!! Ugh!!! BTW, you going to the get-together tomorrow at 2pm? Donna

Michael, As I said on another thread, I just didn't know if Cavies could out-perform and outshine what Kingsmen did last year, and I didn't think Kingsmen would top Madison's performance from '06 - but you all went above and beyond! It was so great to see and hear all of the favorites from over the years and to watch the guard perform moves that I did back when I marched!! I was so happy to see so many people stay in the stands as well. I really hope you all felt the love

Mike W you mean! Not that I would know anything about that!!!! Heck I can't even spell Anonymous correctly!!

Funny you say that as I was thinking the same thing!!!!! Go Madison Go Blue Stars Would love to say Go Packers but with all the #### going on not sure how I feel! I don't have time for all this football drama until after August 9th!!!!

Any plans ever to meet up with each other during finals? Donna

Oh Vic, that is just too funny! Had I known it would become an collectors item I would have kept mine too!!!!

Oh please - I wish they would just do away with the ESPN broadcast! All you see is a smidgen of the shows with no continuaty at all. I don't really think that broadcast is helping the activity at all. I do like this idea of streaming Finals though. I would pay the price of a ticket for it. I won't be able to go to Indy much after this year and would love to watch them live. It would remind me of the days, way back when, we could watch them live on PBS.

I am very glad that they drop the price later in the year - since some of us can attend shows and pay the extra price for a live performance. I got to see Orlando Live ($30, plus gas, hotel, food, etc.), and Atlanta Live (over $60, plus gas, hotel, food, etc.), and then I paid for the one time showing of San Antonio online ($20 - no extra costs, well...except for Beer, snacks, etc). Oh, and my favorite - that this year they let us choose between High or Multi-Cam!! I send them an email to thank them for that!!!!!!! The first time to see all corps was online for San Antonio, then I got to see them LIVE in Atlanta. The next time I see anyone LIVE is at Semis and Finals (let's not even go there on those costs for airline tickets, hotel, car rental, food, etc). That extra $30 is a lot for me, especially when I have already spent for shows that, many times, do not even resememble what I saw in Atlanta or will see next week. I really would rather see the shows closer to Finals as they will appear, then to sign up for this service in the beginning. Sorry, but DCI is getting their money from me anyway they can! Someone else brought this up, but truly, what is the difference between buying the DVDs in August, or waiting until they are 20% off the next April? I am not a person with a lot of patience, but I can wait until April to see my favorite shows again. Maybe, it is because Packer football season starts right after DCI, but I am not really sure!!!! Donna

Thanks back to you Garry! Your post was great too! You also gave me Hope in this community! Are you going to be in Bloomington? Donna

I started my reply to this thread shortly after it was posted. I spent nearly 3+ hours on my reply. Once I posted and then read some of the comments from others I was deeply disappointed in nearly everything I read. The Drum Corps Community is supposed to be a family. We don't know each other so-to-speak, but we meet here, we meet at shows, talk outside having a cig, or at at local resturant when we see a corps shirt - so what's up with all the nasty talk and replies? I'm not talking about healthy debate back and forth - there was some nasty ### #### posted! Even though everyone is entilied to their opinion, there is no reason to diss someone for their's! In the few days I have been a member of this site I have not seen anything like this on any of the threads except this one. Shame on all of you!

Vic, I truly appreciate your comments on this and I would like to comment back, not only to you, but to the folks at DCP in general. I am sure this stuff has been discussed before, but what the heck! In some aspects, but not all, I have to agree with you here. While I believe that the DEMAND in music and drill is much more then when I marched back in the 70's and 80's (and even much more then my brother's time in the 60's), it is truly only "at times". With the pit as massive as they are today and now with mics and amps, there are many, many times when the pit is the only "music" happening - this in turn lets the corps proper run their butts off doing some very complicated drill. But it’s not the same as marching and playing 16th, 32nd notes, etc. Then when you have The Cadets, who have capitalized in the past 4 years with tons of narration on top of that...need I say more! Now, when Cadets march and play they are amazing - but there just is not enough! Now, do I believe the students are being challenged - YES, but again - I think there could be more. But, it has no bearing on if the kids today are more talented today then yesterday - I really think they are more talented now in many aspects (now before anyone jumps down my back - keep reading). Read this year’s DCI Show Day Booklet and you will see, what we really all know, that close to 90% of all participants in this activity are either in college going for some type of music or performing arts degree or plan on that once they get there – READ - "once they get there" (i.e. High Schoolers). Now some History: Back in the early or "olden" days, most all - let me repeat - most all of the music was taught by "rote" or note by note. Sure, there was music handed out, but most horn players and drummers couldn't read music (I couldn’t when I decided to march bass drum – 1984 Spirit of ’76 Senior Corps). Also, going to college was not first and foremost on the minds of most of us in the activity at that time. It was a very different time then that most of the fans today just don't know about or understand. Those that lived it - no explanation is necessary. (Michael Boo, Paul Milano, and others from the 60’s and 70’s, early 80’s, etc. You know what I am talking about!) Now, were we less talented back then…hmmm, probably not, but I would bet anyone out there it was harder on the members as well as the instructors! Now to try and share what answers to your questions I know – and/or commiserate with you: 1) I wouldn't doubt that DCI has some financial stuff to deal with. I would love to know the salaries of some of these folks and why they had or wanted to make the move to Indy. I think this somewhat fits in with part of your question #3, since BOA moved there first – but it is my understanding that they really got a break on office costs, I’m sure they won’t pay much longer for the place in Illinois. Might be better off in the long run. Especially since finals are there for the next 100 years! You know they aren’t going anywhere else. 2) Not quite sure about the rising gas costs as much as what it costs to buy a ticket! $75 to get a decent seat is totally nuts! 3) Ok, not sure how to deal with this one. I agree and disagree. I was married to a band director for 18 years. I was his colorguard/winter guard director and instructor and we had a very competitive band in Illinois. We never got on the latest/greatest DC bandwagon so-to-speak, but now, especially since I am now a marching band judge, I can see your point. 4) I believe that this too shall pass. 10 or so years ago color guards hardly ever had a real piece of equipment in their hands (meaning flags, rifles, sabres). It was all props – but that has finally evolved back (Thank Goodness!). Narrations…see next… 5) There is a difference in my mind between Narration, Added Effect and Amplification. Amplification of the pit and soloists I truly hate. It is just much too loud and was never needed before so why now? Especially when we are talking about Championships being in a Dome for the next 10 years. Hello! (Don’t even get me started on that one – this is supposed to be an outdoor activity!!!) Ok, vent over… and I’m much better now. Narration, such as what Cadets have been doing, is just way too much as well. If I can’t figure out the show on my own then either I am dumb as a stump or you are not communicating it to me – and sorry folks (directors, designers and staff), but that is your job! It’s worked for 80 some years in this activity. Now for Added Effect = “They’re coming down the stretch…” (Crown last year), etc., those short little hits work for me and they work with the story. OK, I know I can’t have it both ways, so if that’s the case then get rid of it entirely – we haven’t needed that either for the last 80 years. But my point is, if it stays - don’t overuse or abuse it! Heck, Phantom is finally getting the story of Spartacus across without those little handouts they used way back when (does anyone remember those?)! 6) As far as I am aware, there are incentives for longer term members as far as dues reductions, sponsorships, etc. I did some checking into this last year to be better informed when I was explaining “all things Drum Corps” to a newbie contest attendee. No corps wants to lose a former member, especially one that knows the “ropes” and is a good role model for rookies. So, I don’t think that money is the total reason why some do not return. The time commitment I really believe has more to do with it. That is so much more intense now days then it was for us. Vic’s quote: “On one hand, and sadly, I am of the opinion that DCI will no longer exist unless some serious changes take place. Changes in the area of judging, the creative direction (if you want to call it that) of the activity, the business practices of DCI as an organization, and the ridiculous rule changes that the board of directors have been "brain-washed" into approving!!” Vic, I do agree that some serious changes need to take place. I am not convinced that the rule changes have been a result of Band Directors, but more of the design teams that want to push the envelope even further. And while that can and should be a good thing, I think that they all need to figure out a way to push that envelope and get outside the box with what the activity has in its basic and original form. Anyone can create bigger, better, faster, stronger, longer when you have “extra supplies” to work with. The astronauts of Apollo 13 were going to die unless their “design team” on Earth could figure out how to make things work with what the astronauts had on hand in Space. Like you Vic, I wonder, why can’t this activity break new grounds with what we have (or have had in the past). But, I don’t think that will happen! I don’t think it is totally a DCI organizational or BOD thing, I think it is more of the mind-set of (OK, I know I will get majorly slammed for this) the younger generation of design staff and members of the activity. The “I can’t be without my cell phone/the Internet/texting capabilities – or the “I can’t be out of touch” (really the, “I don’t know how to be out of touch”) generation. I am not – REPEAT – am not slamming anyone – just making a point! We have become a society of having an attention span (especially age 25 and lower) of maybe 20 seconds, and that may be on the high side. But also many of us in the “more experienced range” have succumbed to that as well! It’s hard not to have been. I am a newbie as far as DCP goes. Not sure why, since I have been involved in this activity for 46 years. My brother marched from the age of 10-22 (1961-72) in The Racine Boy Scouts and Racine Explorer Scouts (The Chrome Domes). I marched from ’75-87 in Racine Scouts, Kilties, Spirit of ’79, and Chicago Vanguard. All I am really trying to do is see both sides of the spectrum and hope that others on this site see those sides too! I want the members of this site to know that I’ve been there, done that and wish it could always be that way - but to also let them know that I understand that the activity needs to continue to grow as well. Vic, I just hope, as I believe you do too, that this wonderful activity that we call Drum and Bugle Corps stays an activity that we want to be and can be proud to be a part of. Let’s hope that the future designers and directors of this activity realize that there is so much you can still do without “extra supplies”. Thanks y’all for listening to my rant! (Ok, born and raised in Wisconsin, but been a Georgia Peach for almost 15 years now!) P.S. It also really P!sses me off that no one thought of a thing like “blast!” while I was young enough to do it! UGH!!!!!!!!! Donna

"I'd prefer people 18-30 because we'll probably be partying alot." Got a place to stay - but just wanted to comment on the above: What's up with that? Just because we might be over 30 means we don't party "a lot"!!!!! I'm in my mid-40's and can party hard with the rest of them - most likely drink most "youngins" under the table. That's what you get when born and raised in Wisconsin - remember we weren't "breast fed" - we were "BEER FED"