JimFoster

Outstanding suggestion!

This is an age old problem in drum corps. I grew up in the Chicago area and marched with a (at the time) Class A 60 corps. Despite being in such a populated area, we were always small. In our "area" we had Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, (later on)Star of Indiana and to a certain extent, Madison Scouts. None of these exceptional organizations were "bleeding us dry" of members. They simply had more successful programs. I seem to remember Jeff Fiedler and the Cavaliers also providing logistical and financial help in putting on our home show in Dalton, Il. back in the 80's. Mr Fiedler, being the class guy that he is, preferred to remain quiet on this and expected nothing in return. No public displays, no "see what I did for them" notes anywhere, etc. Just a classy move by a classy guy in a classy organization. We were not a "feeder corps" for the Cavaliers. They had the Cavalier Cadets. A prime example of a much bigger, more successful program giving back to the community.

While I still personally prefer the G horns, Stu (as usual) makes the points here all so clear. With so many fewer corps these days, there are many less avenues for resale of the G horns. I believe it's unfortunate, but it"s a matter of what makes the most fiscal sense.

Good for you, Stephanie! Yes, what the kids do today Is amazing and IS entertaining. Props to you also for so completely supporting your son. It's expensive and takes up a LOT of time. I would encourage you to take a look and listen to where drum corps "came from". I think you'll be equally amazed. Support your son first, of course. I mean no disrespect to you, your son or the great programs he has been involved in. It's people like you who keep this activity alive. I can't speak for everyone here, nor will I try. I will say that I think it's important to know where you came from. That being said, I also think that even though you may be new to the activity, you should continue to voice your opinion in this format. I, for one< would like to hear what you have to say.

That WAS an amazing show and one of my personal favorites. GREAT example, thanks.

Thank you for reminding me of so many reasons I loved marching when I did. Though I don't consider myself a purist, I couldn't disagree with a single point here. So how do we go about recapturing some of that magic?

Jeff, you bring not only a great question, but THE question. Mulling it over, however gives me a headache. I don't believe than ANY of the upper echelon corps will return to an older style because bucking the established norm in almost ANY activity will get you burned. Also, while a major boycott would hurt DCI where it counts, in the wallet, it would also hurt the current marching members. Do we call it "tough love" and stay away? Shrugging our shoulders and blindly following drum corps into even further obscurity and eventual disappearance is not acceptable either. Maybe staying away is the answer. As a father, I look out for what I believe is my kids' best interests. I may have to intervene by either doing something or not doing something to teach them an important lesson. To guide them in the right direction. Is this the approach to take? Do we simply boycott one show (maybe Finals week?), one season or just not go back until changes are made? Doing so may hurt me more than the activity, but then again, isn't that what "tough love" is all about? I don't possess the vision of how the activity should move forward. While I would definitely prefer to see many changes revoked, I also think that changes in the way we do things will move the activity forward. I would like to propose a summit meeting of sorts. We would have to organize, come up with a specific agenda (more then "to save drum corps") and plan action from there. Would such a thing be possible? I would like to find out.

I apologize for the misspelling. Yes, WE WERE creative and innovative in the 80's and 90's. We had more limitations to contend with at he time as well. I myself am very often nostalgic for "the old days", especially when it comes to my drum corps preferences. However, the activity has changed since you and I marched. One could make the argument that it ceased to be drum and BUGLE corps well before us when valves were added to the horns. Same argument came up when the third valve was added. The switch to Bb instrumentation was inevitable at that point. Personally, I liked the G horns. I also prefer the horn books from back then, too. The activity is different now. Not better, not worse, just different. Let's not kid ourselves. The drum corps that you and I marched is just as different than the drum corps from the 70's and before. BITD, many, if not most, drum and bugle corps were sponsored by VFW halls (mine included). This is now rarely, if ever, the case. I agree, the growth of the activity and many of the changes have increased the amount of funding needed to operate. It is an unfortunate fact of life. This fact alone killed the corps I marched with in 86. New avenues of fund raising must be found. Perhaps even revisit some older ways of fund raising that have since been abandoned. What about copyrights? I'm asking because I don't know. Does each individual corps hold the copyright to their own material or does DCI? Is this a possible source of revenue? "Drum Corps On Demand"? My original point was (and still is) that none of us want to see the activity go away. Things are going to change in drum corps. That has been the one constant over the years (along with increased operational costs). We can sit and complain about the changes, or we can try and do something. Let's light a candle rather than curse the dark.

Outstanding points! Well said.

First, yeah, the flaming of someone's honest opinion gets to me after awhile. "You suck/No, YOU suck" has been on every internet msg board I've ever seen. Second, I am a so-called dinosaur since I marched in the 80's. Of COURSE you see it as simplistic and unrefined. Compared to today's show designs, it is. Just like when you compare the 70's to the 80's. Do I think it was much better? From an overall performance standpoint, no. Although the MM worked just as hard then as they do now, today there is much more to work with as far as the talent pool goes. IMO, there are many more music majors marching today than back then. I have no data to support this, it's just my opinion. However, I think the activity could possibly have been more enjoyable BITD. There were more smaller corps who provided a marching experience for those who could not commit to the rigors of a DCI tour or just plain weren't good enough (or thought they weren't good enough) to make a top 25 corps. In that regard, I see drum corps as more enjoyable for more people. Sure, I love it when a corps tried to make my ears bleed (so long as it's in tune), which SEEMS to be more popular in the older shows. However, having a trained ear, I love well executed music, no matter what the idiom. The bottom line is, this is a youth activity. Always has been. I'm probably gonna catch hell for saying this, but here goes. The activity does NOT belong to the fans. It belongs to the marching members who are CURRENTLY busting their tails to put out the best quality product they can. As an "old fart", I had my "day in the sun". I believe my generation has passed the legacy on to some very deserving people. Yes, many feel it was better in the old days because that's when we marched. Trust me when I say that at some point, after you have aged out, graduated and have a spouse and kids of your own, you will, at times, feel nostalgic for this time in your life. As for what makes ME mad, is when experienced, talented and intelligent people here on this board lower themselves to the sarcastic and condescending comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread. Oddly enough, this seems to happen with people from every era, not just mine or today's "young guns".

Not a disaster but just kinda funny...I had a contra solo in our closer "Come in from the rain" in 85. I believe it was in Momence, Il. After setting my contra on it's bell to remove my hat, I would spin it up onto my shoulder. As I spun my horn up, a car screeched around a corner right behind the field. Watching it on videotape (yes, tape) afterwards, it looked like an old Road Runner cartoon.

I think it's the ungodly loud, but still in control aspect that was being referred to. Drum corps has definitely evolved over the years. I think that even today, a majority of fans like the loud but also insist that it be a "good" loud, not just loud for the sake of being loud. The different dynamics are part of what makes our idiom musical. I see a few venerable, normally well spoken and intelligent posters playing the role of nay-sayer. To you folks I pose a further question of "Is there anything we can do about this?" and moreover, "Should we?"

How about 1 step further? An exhibition during Finals week of 2 alumni corps doing a show style from each decade? Maybe call it "Drum Corps Through The Years?"

Therein lies the problem

It seems to me that the majority of the marketing goes toward recruitment. It used to be a requirement (at least in the now-defunct DCM) that a member corps had to host a local show. Despite the HUGE costs in doing so, I think this might help. Have you ever seen a semi-circle of horns or drums that DIDN'T draw a crowd? I also think that copyrighting a corps' music by DCI is a huge mistake. How much exposure does DCI gain by having Finals on PBS? Unfortunately, there will always be a certain part of the general population who will always just blow it off as "band geeks". It's the downside to the fact that you can't really understand what it's like to march until you actually do. How would you market a ballet or symphony to the masses? How about an opera? To many, these are seen as "highbrow" activities. Something that they simply do not understand. Perhaps pushing the "youth activity" aspect in high schools and colleges (which is being successfully done in some areas). Maybe a "What did YOU do last summer?" essay contest sponsored in part by the nearest DCI affiliate? I'm sure there are many folks,who are much smarter than I am, who have a wealth of ideas about this. How about PSA's by now successful former MMs like Boys and Girls Club has done? Musical tastes are VERY subjective. My tastes in music are rather eclectic, which I attribute to my exposure to a variety of musical styles in drum corps. Would so much Stan Kenton be in my mp3 collection if it weren't for my love of BD? Probably not. Same with classical due to Cadets and Phantom. Part of the drum corps experience is an education in music. I think that pushing THAT aspect actually hurts DCI as a whole because it could turn away potential fans because they don't play the "right" instrument or play no instrument at all. I feel your pain. This is something that has bothered me since I first got involved in drum corps in the early 80's. I am willing to bet, however, that if you ask the "man on the street" in Madison, Wisconsin or any other town where a WC corps has been entrenched for decades about DCI that you'd receive a MUCH different response.

Well, my background is in Junior corps, but I don't think the feelings are much different. As my old corps no longer exists, I watch or at least look for the folks we competed against. Many are gone, but many have grown and flourished. I guess the point is that no matter when or where we marched, we all had the time of our lives and are better people for having done so. The rule changes and product on the field are almost secondary to survival of the activity as a whole. I might not enjoy it as much as I used to (in my opinion), but that doesn't mean I want it to either go back to the way it was or just plain go away. Music programs around the country are going away due to lack of funding. The same with many youth-oriented activities. I don't want drum corps (DCI, DCA or any other incarnation) to face the same fate. I consider the folks I marched with family. I may not have spoken to many of them since Reagan was president, but I love and miss them just the same. I just don't feel quite the same about any other group of people I've been associated with.

Jim, Though we marched about a decade apart, it sounds like our experiences are quite similar. I remember returning from my first deployment in the Navy and going to Dekalb in 88 and seeing the Scouts. Man, what a show. Due to area restrictions as well as military commitments, I didn't attend another show until I drove from NAS Whidbey Island in northern Washington to Concord to see BD in 95. Again, the horn line nearly made me wet myself. Though it was a darker show, it brought me nothing but pure, unadulterated joy. Moments like that are fewer and further between. Now before I need to put my asbestos underwear, I do still get excited over the shows of today. Some things haven't changed. The staff and the marching members still bust their tails to put on the best show they possibly can. Lifelong friendships are still made. Marching drum corps still develops young men and women into better people for having had the experience and shows are still enjoyable. That being said, I just plain don't like a lot of changes that have been made. Call me a dinosaur if it makes you feel better. I'm a big boy and I can take it. These changes are not, however, the sole reason I so rarely go to a show. Life has gotten in the way. I think that no matter how you feel about the activity as it is today vs how it was "back in the day" (no matter when that was), we may all agree that something needs to be done to ensure the continued existence of the activity. DCI was formed for the purpose of strengthening the activity of drum and bugle corps. To make sure that kids had a place to march. Perhaps revisiting why we are all here and why we fell in love with drum corps in the first place will point us at an answer.

To any designers out there, we don't want you to re-create the old shows, we just want you to re-create the FEELING those shows had. :) This post has been edited by garfield_cadets: Sep 18 2010, 04:30 PM Amen! As a self-professed dinosaur, I long for the days of being on my feet during a performance before I even realized it. Moments that brought tears to my eyes simply because of the emotion of the moment. garfield, couldn't possibly have stated it any better.

Personally, I would not support the adding of woodwinds. I don't support the additions of electronics or amplification, but that doesn't keep me from supporting the activity. While yes, there have been many purists who said "it just wasn't drum corps" when the activity went co-ed, valves were added, mallets were grounded, the tick system went away, etc. This has almost never been a valid argument. If you want to make THAT argument, it stopped being "drum and bugle corps" when valves were added to the horns.Yet we continue to call our activity just that. However, I have to ask myself "What defines Drum Corps for me?" Is it the experiences? The pagentry? The comraderie? Definitely. However, I also enjoyed the same things about my time in the Navy. When I joined drum corps, I knew nothing of the activity. I knew absolutely nothing of the history and had never even seen a show. I didn't join for comraderie or for pagentry. I didn't stay for these things either. I stayed for the sound. I stayed because I enjoyed the difference from marching band. As a horn player, I enjoyed my niche. The addition of woodwinds would fundamentally change the sound. Would it still be artistic? Of course it would. Would a DCI "corps" still be a superior product than that of most marching bands? Of course it would. However, it would be fundamentally different. Many points have been made about the logistics that would prevent woodwinds from working in drum corps (pad jobs, reed replacement, etc). While these arguments are all valid, they seem unnecessary to me. It has been years since I attended a live show. I'll not go into those reasons now. However, I fondly remember watching the old semicircles of horlines in the 80's warming up just melting my face off with such a rich, powerful sound out of so few horns. This, to me, defines drum corps. Always has, always will. Now, even though I'm a brass guy, I love the sound of well played woodwinds. I love listening to old recordings of Pete Fountain, Stan Getz, etc. I also enjoy listening to drum corps music. To me, they are distinctly different, yet just as pleasing and enjoyable. However, they each have their own place. The sound of all brass and percussion is my place. Add all the visual stuff you want. Just don't mess with that sound.

I think the differences in the shows don't have much to do with the quality of the recording at all. The differences in teaching methods, the better education of both staff and the kids in the corps and the technological improvements in the instruments themselves. I marched a small corps in Illinois in the 80's. My first year I played on an old rotary valve soprano. While I am a big fan of G bugles due to the richness of the overall sound, a good horn player is going to sound good no matter what horn he or she is playing. As for the differences in show design, I seem to remember the Cadets back in the 80's being overly associated with the word "innovation". For those of us who aren't old enough to remember this age, this was the point where the drum corps activity as a whole became more about artistry. What was considered innovative then is now old fashioned and outdated. It is human nature to be nostalgic for the past. Although I personally still watch these old shows, I really can't see the activity moving backwards. While we should DEFINITELY embrace the past and remember where we came from, it's imperitive to look forward. The activity that we all love so much has survived and evolved because of change, not despite it.