Vdad76

I'm glad you say something about telling people they are in your seats, but.....it doesn't matter whether it's the first or 500th time at any event, there should be consideration for someone that pays for that seat. If you didn't pay for it, get your butt out of it. I've taken kids on all kinds of trips in my 31 year career as an educator and administrator. We made sure our students understood what was right and what was not right and if you couldn't follow what was given to you, even as a suggestion, then you were either going to be talking to your parents on reverse charges (roaming charges are just as good) about your unwanted attitude and behavior. if you couldn't understand that, then you were going home on your parents dime. I don't care if someone else is letting you or the people you are with be unaware of respect to those who paid for those seats or respect for your elders (adults, the ones older than you), it shouldn't happen. There is no way this person who wrote the OP is in the wrong and never said a thing about not standing up for themselves, and there are people who have a hard time doing that. So why not be the one who stands up for them, instead of telling them to stay home. Maybe the example you set will be the one they follow next time!

I like your thoughts a lot, except I'm confused by your second sentence. I couldn't make sense of it, but the rest of what you said was good and should be what everyone is working towards. I'm just not sure that DCI or the judges have a handle on it yet and they need to have some guidelines talked about and on paper that would indicate the direction that DCI would like to see happen. A controlled environment that supplements the music or a free-for-all, which is where we are at now, or something in between.

I have taught and I have marched and I have written. Please don't try and make remarks you know nothing about with me personally. I did not do that to you. You want to discuss things that I think, that's fine, but don't fly off frothing at the mouth because you believe I've denegrated something. I've seen the show and watched the show.

I would agree with several of your points, especially "repetition, and doubling down on what makes BD, BD (or Crown, Crown, etc) part of the appeal of a corps?" It was always part of the appeal and even though it sounded more negative than I wanted it to, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. However, the argument has been, ad nauseum, this year that Bluecoats are bringing the same old tired and same ideas to the table. That they and many others have found formulas to follow and now just present the same show in a different setting. I was trying to get across that there are many shows by many corps that follow their own formulas for as long as they have been in DCI. This may not mean down to the visuals or even music, but in pulling back from the show, many things become apparent that have always been each Corps signature. I don't necessarily believe formulas are a bad thing or a reason not to notice. Corps are going for effects, emotions and challenges for both the audience, corps members and staffs, that they are allowed to now because of rule changes and challenges brought about by other groups decisions to stretch the boundaries. Formulas are what they and are a reason certain corps change or that some stay static in the things they do. Blue Devils have, what I consider, the best organization in DCI. It's the reason they are able to reload every year, rather than rebuild. The staff stays together for long periods of time, members come up through the ranks from C to B to A in their corps, giving them a set of things that the top group does not have to worry much about (obviously not every graduate gets filled in with a "JV" member). It is a set of things they basically have to start each season. They also have a set of things they do better than anyone else and a set of things they are lacking in. The staff writes for what they do best, knowing that they can do them incredibly well and the others are not emphasized as much or written to a certain level knowing they can compensate in other areas. Formulas work well and aren't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm sure you can make the argument. This year has shown that many arguments can be made for many things. Their formula is not tired, it got hooked to an unmovable object and a show they couldn't clean. I love Cavies, Blue Devilsand Crown, but Bluecoats should have and did win last year. If you want formulas, you can look at BD. Great brass, percussion and guard, very average visual show, which was and has been a formula of theirs for many years. It's clean as all get out and the brass plays incredibly well, but the simplicity of the visual show is an amazing thing, and congrats to them for finding the formula that worked very well in the past and will win them the title this year.

Good points all of them. I appreciate you pointing them out and I'll watch SCV a couple more times before I see semis and finals. Thanks and again, good points and explanation!

I would disagree on your point. Down side up, was a brilliant show, beginning to end which was performed in spectacular fashion by the Bluecoats. Every thing that was in that show was innovative in it's concept and the performance of the concept. I don't see that this year from anyone. There are great shows such as, BDs GE generation in GE through its brass section - which has been flat out incredible, but I still see it as lacking in its visual concepts (not performance because they are performing it at a very high level), in that they just don't have the a very demanding or difficulty built into the show at all, in its visuals. Santa Clara has everything you'd want in a show, but again, one weakness - in my opinion, is the music which walks the line of people either loving the what SCV is doing in their brass with amplification amongst a very few and very talented few, with micing certain people that can handle the lines of difficulty in the music while the other brass line players play supporting roles, making it appear to the naked ear that an entire section or the illusion, unless you listen closely, of the full section of entire section of brass, playing the difficult lines. Auditory illusion! Nothing against it in the rules, but is the spirit of the rule being followed? We could go on and on as nauseum, but no reason to frustrate everyone. The rules congress needs to find a small group of the board of directors to sit diwn and draft something that would make sense in the parameters to which those rules need to be applied. Send it to DCI, work out the things that don't make sense, add and subtract, then vote on it. Right now it's the Wild, Wild West with electronics and amplification and it needs to be reigned in before it becomes a "the haves vs. the have nots" - which is what it is right now. Sorry, I have ventured into the area I should not. Anywho, my premise was that SCV's show was not the breakthrough show that Stars was/is. It's wonderful, but for me, musically. It's an in your face type of show with no let up, which is something needed to allow the audience to breath and take in what they seen and heard.

I was thinking that several Corps have used vocal soloists in their shows in the past 6-7 years in the same way the park and sing ensemble is being used, through the entire show. I think it was a Boston that did it once and a couple of other corps. The soloists/ensembles didn't do anything to March in the show at all either. Did the statues (guys that were painted to look like statues) that The Cadets used last year do any marching?

Harsh and wrong.

Sounds like you need to find your corner and stay there E3D. When you get over your tantrums, come on back and try to discuss things like an adult.

Wow, did your Mom take the remote away from you today? The things that make posting difficult anywhere is the name calling, accusations of someone being stupid or being made to feel that your opinion has no value and you dont have anything to say because you don't know drum corps. Then there is the whoa is me, the judges all hate us, the must get together every night and make sacrifices and put pins in dolls so my corps won't do well or the all make a blood pact that says all the other corps but mine can score higher in the next show, but mine has to score lower. if we can make healthy criticisms, have conversations that will take the feelings and emotions into account that others have and decide we all have something valuable to say, then these posts are worth having. If someone feels Bc is getting shafted, wants to know why, then why, if following some kind of protocol that keeps in mind we all have our biases and not a lack of knowledge, but a lack of experience or understanding, try and explain that without references that embarrass or try to embarrass anyone be bad?

Yes you did.

Agree with you on what show they'll remember, but really disagree on the same show, different year idea.

I like the explanation, but I'm not sure most fans want to have to think this hard about a show. You and I probably enjoy finding the backstories, the whys and wherefores of what has been written and put on the field both visually and musically. My kids (ages, 25, 31 and 33) are kind of split on it too. They have grown up watching DCI with me live and on tv. My daughters - the oldest ones would love the backstories, etc, but my son (the youngest) just wants to go and have a good time. He doesn't want to have to think about things too deeply at all. He's a throwback fan that would have loved it in 60s when people were screaming "higher, faster, louder!". It's just a matter of taste with fans. I know my son would hear Santa Clara and want to head to the concession stand because of the music they play. My daughters would want to know who the composers were, the titles of the music and think it was a cool show. By the way, the Zappa picture is great!

Any group can be broken down into faults when you look for them. Comparing things, at times, is difficult at best, especially in this activity. The compassion you have for Bluecoats is great, but it overwhelms the sense you have. It's a great show, but in my opinion, is not the GE generator that down stairs up was. Jagged edge, for me, does not give me visual/music marriage that exploded in last years show with the electricity that started from its unusual opening to the seem-less use of passages from several compositions and arrangements to the body movement, the sexy vibe of the ballad and frenzied chaos leading to a wonderful closing that left the audience wanting more. I like the continuation of the edgy ideas in this show, but it just does not click together on all the cylinders that the staff intended and needs desperately to be cleaned up to gain its full GE. Even with that, in what BD and Vanguard are doing in maximizing what they can do best is generating the GE, they need to cover their weaknesses (in my opinion - BD for weak visuals/design, which does however, maximize their incredible brass line and Vanguard for brass line weaknesses, covering by micing certain people to cover for trying to clean up difficult passages - something marching bands have been doing for a long time, for me - a design flaw in the show is that never lets you breath, just keeps coming at you). They are both playing the sheets and the way things are scored, in that scores continually inflate throughout the season, whether they should or not. This really is a seminal moment for DCI and it's judges. Do we decide what is more important than something else on the judging forms and make it a more determining factor, such as gymnastics or skating (you have a certain score for certain moves, tricks, etc and then score on how well you do that element). That would require a determination of many items and probably more judges. For instance, you would have one judge looking strictly at what is done, then scoring on whether each element was done, and one strictly looking at how well it is done. Imagine for instance, one judge is determining what elements are being done with a checklist (content) and the other judge looking at how well each was done (achievement). It would probably require the ability to go back and immediately look at tape to determine some things. It might also require that the show is mapped out by each corps, letting judges know that they have added an element or taken one away or simplied it. Etc. the same would have to be done for color guard. Music people would have to have scores and basically the upstairs judge would have to be looking at the score while the downstairs person would not have a score but would be listening to how well the corps itself, ensembles and soloists are playing - in tune, etc. It may require more judges, equaling more cost, etc.

Yes I did and I agree, but again, any show can be seen for its faults especially when looking for them.

You are passionate about the corps you like and that's great, but judges aren't getting together and colluding to what you believe they are. Remember these are human beings too, affected by many things we are as fans, but they have adjudication forms to follow, they've been through a lot of training and are the very best at what they do. There is no "collective thought", they are interested in making the activity the best it can be. There have been racier costuming that has gone on and racier things that have been done on the field so nothing is groundbreaking here and would not get credit because it does not convey the shows intent more than a butt cheek showing. However I would, as a judge be wary of the edges being pushed by that and say something, if that happened. Fast is not old school, just a tool in the tool box of a designers ideas for what they find needs to be conveyed in the music. If BD, which I assume is the incarnate group you are complaining about, wrote their show to match up the best abilities of their kids and use things within that show to maximize what they present, isn't that as good as anything else? They are maximizing the credit within the product that they feel is best suited to their members abilities and minimizing the things that they don't do well. They are counting on their music to grab the GE and maximize their score, which they do well. I don't agree with the judges giving credit where I don't think it should be given in visuals, but they are very clean and doing things extremely well. Blue Devils are known for the ability to clean their show and make it squeak. A lot of their membership comes up through the ranks of the best organization in Drum corps, giving them an understanding of the job each of them have to do and how important the littlest things have on the final outcome. That along with a tremendous brass line this year is pushing them to the heights they are gaining. Bc is having trouble cleaning things up, which makes a hard read at times for judges and, I believe, have married themselves to something that constricts what they can do visually, which is part, a big part, of the package they are presenting. I think what they are doing is great, but in light of last years show, is not the visual/music package that generated the GE that led them to the gold medal last year. It's a great show, could be even greater, but having something on the field that cannot be moved is a difficulty in itself. It splits the field, splits the flow of the show and as I said earlier, constricts what can be done on the field. Each of the top 4 shows have weaknesses this year - I thought Bluecoats show had no weakness last year. What have they done to maximize their strengths is why the placements and scores are where they are (not that I agree with either right now, but it's falling out to that right now). We'll see what everyone can do in these last 10 days or so to generate something that isn't being done right now and where each of them find themselves at the end of Championships will be interesting. I remember very well, Star of Indiana coming in on a very big winning streak in 92, and were first in Quarters, send in Semis and Third at finals - Cavies finished first and Cadets second that year, so anything can happen, will it - depends on the staff and kids!

Any show could be broken down like this if you are looking for the faults, which are pretty opinionated, which is anybodies perspective that loves a certain corps, wants to see them win and defends what they do to the bitter end.

Thanks.

Got it. You're right I didn't see the specific post you were responding to.

Tom Lehrer is a great one. Thanks for bringing this in to the discussion. I love it!

I would say that your bias shows too, so you might want to exam it yourself. Blue Devils have used bras and shorts to their advantage themselves and many other gimmicky things as you called it - did you get tired of them? What is being displayed this year is the real dichotomy of two ends of the spectrum shows and it has turned into the Blue Devils vs the Bluecoats way. I would tell you both are good for DCI, but there is a division in the fandom reaching ugly levels. I will guarantee you that the kids in both BD and Bc are working their fannies off to present to you what has been given to them to do. Blue Devils are marching a show reliant on their brass to be the GE and not so much the visual. I would say they are getting their credits with a brass line that is great and is not having to worry much about about playing while running which is a staff that decided, let's put them in the place they can do best and the kids are responding. Bluecoats are doing their best to present a visual idea married with the music with more movement while playing, but are not playing the difficulty or cleanliness that BD is. I find the jagged line line that is right in the middle of the field to be constrictive in the visual ideas they present, although I think the ones they present are very good, but I find this years arrangements and show not to be the generator of GE that last years was, which was groundbreaking to say the least. This show very, very good, but not the great GE generator they had last year. I don't think they should be as far back (neither do I believe should Crown either) and this year should be, again in my estimation about 2.5 between the top 4. I think it should be that close. I think Vanguard has the best overall show, but it is show that never lets up on the gas pedal. It doesn't let me relax, it just comes at you. Crown marches more than anyone in DCI, very little park it and play, which is ok with me. It's hard to look at things in a context of appreciation for everything everyone does, especially when you "fall in love" with a group or a section of the country. You start believing your corps is getting the shaft, much like sports, it's part of the competitive nature we've built into things and we have a tendency to then put it back on the judges, like in sports with the refs or umps.

Great job of disseminating information that is essential to understanding adjudication. You would be crazy to try and be a professional judge, it just doesn't work out as a workable full time job. I've never seen charts given to anyone, whether it's music or visuals, in marching band or Drum Corps or Winter Guard. It would be impossible to do because the shows change so rapidly. I had a close friend who was involved with the Sacramento Freelancers in the 90s who worked with the Visual team. I got to visit him as they were practicing for Quarterfinals and he relayed to me that they had gone through over 400 charts of visual changes during the season, besides the over 200 they started with. That's a lot of changing for any group and I'm sure there were groups that were far past that amount of changes, besides the small changes made during rehearsals, made on the fly. I know that in drill writing now, we chart for some marching bands, over 100 charts to begin with and then make another 50-100 charts worth of changes during the year. Getting that kind of information to judges would be impossible, let alone having them understand it. Music would be even more difficult and with royalty charges along with paying arrangers and then making cuts, simplifying certain parts or transferring parts to another voicing, it becomes an even larger mess and again would make it difficult to get to adjudicators. Other parts of the music education business are very different as far as adjudication goes. In festivals run at the distric, regional or state levels, adjudicators have scores in front of them, but then there is no variance or changes made to that music and most states do not allow cuts to be made to published music and most do allow for handwritten music, that is not published. That is a very different setting. I would venture to say that someone who is adjudicating in any music endeavor at whatever level it is, has a full time job doing whatever it is most people work at in a day to day setting. Most jobs would be as music teachers. Some may be as instructors for percussion, color guard. They are drill writers, music arrangers and composers and even corporate officers in companies, banks and a great variance of jobs everywhere. They all have one thing in common, they love the activity they are judging and want to see it succeed in whatever purpose it has.

There have been quite a few times in the long ago that sound amplification would have helped, but in those shows, Corps took a chance, not always wisely, which cost most of them. Bridgemen in 80 when the percussion, which was up front, took off with the tempo and the corps couldn't hear what the brass was playing side to side. Was probably the best chance for a title for them, which went down the tubes with. Santa Clara took a huge chance in Montreal by putting the horn line across the front and going into the Bottle Dance from Fiddler. Crowd went nuts, corps was too spread out to hear, guard was off, ending not good! I can't remember a couple of others that I had thought of, getting old timers disease, but amplification would have helped, instead, corps took chances and it didn't work.

Crown has done more drill than anyone the past two years and not just for the sake of doing drill. Great job this year too, I have enjoyed watching what they have done.