tubajoe

Willie Nelson had it right. It’s not about the “names”, it’s not about the key of the horn, it’s not about the number of drummers, or how high someone can toss a weapon. It’s not about who has the longest hype thread or the snarkiest replies. It’s not about the ultimate horn exercise or the snappiest marching style. It’s not about who wrote your show, or even what your show really is. It IS about the process. …and how FAR you are able to push yourself during. Willie Nelson said “The life I love is makin’ music with my friends.” It’s become my mantra for life. Take control of what you do, and make it enjoyable. Do it really well. Come join me. Joe

you guys make my head hurt.

MAN I love talking about this stuff! Great post Wade. I wholeheartedly agree... I'd like to go beyond what your great post indicates and pose some issues in both directions. There are indeed certain keys of horns that do compliment / work better with each other -- and as you said keys are selected almost specifically for timbre. ...and mismatched timbre can cause either percieved or actual mismatched intonation. Again, while I absolutely agree with your statements, there is the physical fact that certain keys of instruments mesh well together. As a rule (and remember every rule is broken often) - Bb and Eb go together wonderfully (British Brass Band setup) - Bb and F go together pretty well too. - Eb and F only work together if on different instruments - C and Bb only work if on different instruments (Russian 3rd trumpet parts notwithstanding!) - C and F work so/so. - Bb and G together is quite difficult. Bb, Eb, F, and to a certain extent C, are all somewhat complimentary of each other. But G is a whole different animal... One main point I'd like to add is that in Wade's explanation of orchestral sections (which is fairly correct for the US and Canada) while key is indeed different from section to section, the key is *almost* always the SAME WITHIN each section -- and to go a step further, in the higher-end ensembles, they will (just like a drum corps!) MATCH instrument makes (again, to a certain extent) - Bone sections are often either a Bach section or a Edwards section (or Conn?). - Trumpet sections are often either a Bach section or a Monet section. (and rarely do those ever mix) - Horn sections are often a "Geyer wrap" section or are a Conn 8D section. (and right hand technique and/or on/off the leg may match) - Trumpet sections sometimes use rotaries, and sometimes pistons, but when they switch, they all switch together. - Tubas, well they are tubas :) but in multiples will, of course, do what they can to complement, as you do Wade, as I am sure you've done your share of Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Stravinsky etc etc! ;) As a Rudy, a Boosey, and a York are all quite different... The same thing happens in other sections too... as there are schools of oboe playing (which is a major factor in their tonal approach) and sections tend to be one or the other... and in bass sections, type of bass bow used tends to match. Violin schooling (Moscow etc) tends to be similar. Timpani players usually play on a matched set of drums. etc etc. The same reason is why a jazz trumpet section will play all on Bb trumpets. Why sax sections are Bb and Eb (and why they dont use the "melody" tenor in C anymore) Tradition, yes. But also logic and physics. Uniformity of equipment within certain sections is usually there to some extent in ideal situations, and as we said has the greatest effect on timbre, which in turn, does aid / affect intonation (or percieved intonation and/or balance.) The main point being that it is ok to mix keys, but is BEST to match within each section whenever possible. ...as Bb and G instruments differ quite a bit (especially in trumpets and tubas) Now to even go one step further... I completely agree with your statement of "Out of tune is out of tune, regardless of matched or mismatched keys. In tune is in tune." As THE maestro Bud said once: "He who comes in first is in tune." HOWEVER, this does not discount the benefits of matched brasses, matched mouthpieces and even to the extent of matching tuning slide positions... AS, First the goal is to work making intonation an instinctual thing... elemental and organic. Singing. MATCHED EQUIPMENT DOES NOT acoustically make a hornline more in tune... rather, it eliminates variables. ...which, psychologically can be an advantage to amateur/student (most drum corps) brass players. Meaning that, if two players are playing on the exact same axe, and they are out of tune with each other, it means that it is theoretically only the concept of the player what is not matching -- as the axe itself is not a factor in the equation. It also allows the instructor to control bad equipment choices (as in bad mouthpiece choices which is RAMPANT in drum corps, especially amongst self-taught wannabe upper lead players) Sure, in tune is in tune, always. But matching equipment can help (and expedite) the process of teaching and learning that concept in a short amount of time. You mention that the horn itself is practically NOT an issue in intonation. And I agree -- and THAT is the EXACT reason FOR matching the equipment. This system, pioneered by Jack Meehan, Wayne Downey, and Jim McFarland in the late 70's (I think) is pure genius. It takes what orchestral sections and brass bands have done for years, and applied it to drum corps. On top of that, once a hornline is quite mature, it gives the line *however slight and controversial* the theoretic possibility of playing with temperaments, enharmonicity etc. (...and is also a factor in why THAT brassline’s historical success and record, is absolutely untouchable by any other group thus far in the entire activity, period.) Matched slides also is an easy way to "approximately" re-adjust an entire line at once (the horns, not the players!) when environmental conditions change. Great stuff... I'm looking forward to this weekend, can ya tell??? BTW, I wanna see you blow away a viola section with that K-90! peace joe

Playing a different brass instrument would do much more good than harm (especially moving down)! The experience of playing an instrument with a larger flow rate (baritone is approx twice as much, tuba 4x) would probably GREATLY improve your trumpet playing! Dont worry about the "chop muscle" bit... it's not really an issue. The human body is amazingly adaptable. There is also the matter of becoming a well-rounded musician! ...putting yourself in different circumstances can only improve how you perceive and interpret...

Dave Carico -- one of the biggest influences on my playing of anyone I have ever been in contact with. 2 seasons with him changed how I looked at everything. Later, when I would travel far and wide to study with "greats", I would hear many of the same things I heard from Dave back in drum corps. Wayne Downey -- the man has ears like no one has ears. His ability to hear detail is super-human. His level of expectation (nothing short of perfection every time) really pushed me a lot. I think of my times in his line nearly every day. Jim McFarland -- right along with Wayne Downey, but add an "organic" side to it -- always combining music with both body and earth. He was able to relate things... going beyond the "how" and making sense as to the "why". (and this last Sept it was such a honor to have him join me to watch the Bushwackers' lot runthru after winning brass at DCA) Dan Farrell -- he can say so much with so few words. Always envied that! Robert Nunez -- tuba player extraordinaire... really helped get me going at the right point in time.

Wonderful band! Here is a very remote drum corps connection -- two of the sax players, Tony Barba and Zach Lucas, who are both prodigy-type amazing have both played in my Tuba Love project many times.

Right on Seth! Carico is one of the BEST ever!!

Depends on the type of playing too... It can make you have to work harder in various registers and and at certain dynamics. It's not as if it will prohibit things, it is just that it can make you have to work harder / shift needlessly etc. It also will change the color of certain notes here and there. It also will impede mouthpiece buzzing a lot. (which is bad) Personally, I notice it in the pedal range, as well as going into the upper register -- and it was causing me to shift going up high, more than what is really needed. I usually notice myself shifting before I notice that I've been a bum and not shaved. :) (I used to have a big ol moustache, but a certain teacher I had told me to shave it off... much to my wife's chagrin) It's obviously more of a factor the LARGER the mouthpiece -- ie tuba players most etc... as they rely on a larger amount of surface area / facial tissue.... trumpet players often dont need to worry about it as long as they trim. Players might not notice it in typical drum corps playing, or are able to get by satisfactorily with facial hair... but with many low brass players, shaving can make things better & easier / clear up issues. It's all about smooth and consistent, while NOT working physically hard... and doing all that you can do to promote that.

Cut it. Esp the top lip. Gotta do it if you wanna play well. It'll get in the way of accuracy.

Don’t sweat the fact that you can’t do something – and don’t look for reasoning as to why…! The tongue is actually a very quick muscle… and articulation on the horn actually has much more to do with than just the tongue. It is important that you dont overanalyze the process -- better to use something as a model that you ALREADY know how to do... (looking at it all organically) ...such as SPEECH. When we play we use the tongue in a very similar way as when we are speaking (certain syllables) and singing (speech + pitch). So, presuming that you can speak clearly and that there are no physiological aliments (such as someone who has had Bell’s Palsy etc) then you should be able to "tongue" notes just fine. …it’s just a matter of coordination. Build things up organically, one aspect at a time. Start with something you already know how to do… Say the syllable "TA", say "TITITITITITITI" notice where the tongue hits when you speak – right on the fleshy part right above your front upper teeth. THAT is where you want it to hit when you articulate on the horn. Next SING TA TA TA… everything should be the same. (making sure you are taking in a FULL tank of air beforehand… sing with bravado and no pressure) NOW Buzz on the mouthpiece alone, the exact thing. Breathe in and INSTANTLY articulate. TA TA TA keep doing that until you have it down to a preliminary habit. Finally, try it on the horn… don’t worry about how it feels… go with it. Also, you don’t need the tongue to initiate notes – also work on articulating without the tongue. If I would wager a guess it is as much of an air thing as it is a tongue thing. I wont analyze anything else without hearing you – just make sure that WIND is aspect #1, and the tongue is just used to shape whatever articulation syllable you desire. Your body already knows how to manipulate that muscle much better than you could mechanically teach it (same goes with breathing) USE THAT. And, take a lesson. That’s the best thing to do. Joe

Dear drum corps friends, I want to personally and enthusiastically invite you to be a part of the Bushwacker hornline. There are some important personal guarantees that I make to you… -You will be pushed harder than you have been pushed before. -You will become a better, more efficient, more proficient musician overall, regardless of the level you are at now and regardless of your previous experience level. -You will play music that challenges you technically, musically, and intellectually, regardless of the level you are at now. -You will learn new techniques and perspectives, regardless of the level you are at now. -You will learn how to go beyond what normal drum corps is all about and learn things that are applicable to all areas of music performance. I also guarantee that some of you may not be able to handle the responsibility, challenge, or the extreme dedication needed to deal with such a high level of expectation. ...but, that is what it takes to be the best. This is my personal pledge and invite to you… I work really hard at this -- to make sure that EVERY member of the line goes above and beyond what they thought they could do before. To me, that is what this activity is all about. If this does not happen with every player, I am not doing my job – and this is a job that I take VERY seriously. (…just ask last year’s line.) We start this coming Saturday, 10am. (info HERE) Sincerely, Joe Exley Bushwackers Brass Caption Head (2005-current)

The newer Yamaha marching tubas (NOT the convertibles) are pretty close... closest thing to a K-90 so far... and are the best tubas on the field at the moment IMHO. It will be interesting to check out the Kings. I'm glad that companies are now referring to the K-90's... they were FAR superior to the stuffy Kanstul Magnum things that replaced them.

BD's K-90's (for those who think they may have them now) will be identified by the unique shape of the forward-most brace between the body and bell -- intead of straight, it is "U" shaped. This customization was done because the stock (straight) braces would break constantly (as most of you know). The "U" shaped brace was very springy and let the horn flex against itself. The bell would kinda go "fyooiingggg" when doing an ultra-fast, BD-style horns up! Despite the really flat second line G, those horns were the best contrabass bugles ever.... in fact probably the best contra/tuba low type bass horn thing to ever dawn a marching field. Bar none. What a sweet sound. Thick, but not stuffy, light but not bright. Miss those things.... Best K-90 pic ever (taken a couple years before my time): The pic is from 1986... the foremost player is Mike Kirby.

TAKE A LESSON!

One thing... L OOOOOOO N G Tones. It's a simple muscle strength thing. Dont do any goofy pencil / nickle / dime exercises....., rather give yourself TIME, and consistency, like any type of muscle building exercise You embouchure consists mostly of the orbicularis oris muscle -- which is a ring shaped sphincter muscle -- but it is also a a vortex of many fibres woven in from other muscles from all over the face. The orbicularis orbis is fairly strong, but the fibers from the other many muscles are not. You are dealing with a physical conditioning process, just on a very small level. It is probably as much a situation of form, as it is of sheer strength (which is why I advise strongly against those extra strength exercises mentioned in this thread) Start with what you CAN already do... dont push it to extremes in range (you may create bad habits) Play LONG tones on mid-low and midrange notes. Play scales as high and low ONLY as far as you can go without shifting or adjusting your embouchure. (let music guide you, not physicality) Gradually (over the course of days) work things in either direction range-wise. It is important to understand that this takes TIME. Buzzing on your mouthpiece alone (preferably tunes, not just exercises) as well as on a visualizer (mouthpiece ring) is a big help as well. Keep everything musical. Look in a mirror and see if your form is good. Do this with the mouthpiece alone. It's important that you do your best to play EVERY DAY. ...even if it is just a little bit. 15 minutes a day, every day is FAR better than several hours once or twice a week. Start slow, and build up gradually. It is also important to note that breathing exercises probably do not have anything to do with this loose embouchure issue. But, while playing, make sure you are doing the breathing thing correctly (as deep as possible and using no pressure) ....that being said, let me say a bit about inner air pressure. Dont use it, you dont need it. Dont create it. Above all, go take a lesson from a local pro (drum corps or not) preferably someone with a GREAT sound. That's worth at least a thousand words. peace

...presuming that the player is playing a Bb trumpet, F mellophone, and Bb tuba. (those assumptions will make the bugle purists furious! ) B)

Any woodwind player can switch to any brass they wish... The consideration (and rule of thumb is) The smaller the horn, and the higher played on it, the more musculature strength / time to build it -- will be involved. Saying that, lead trumpet will take longer to learn because of the chop building needed. Lower trumpet wont take quite as long, as is with mellophone, and so on. Baritone and tuba are a bit easier, as the sheer amount of muscle strength (within the embouchure) is considerably less (generally) And in a related issue, the embouchure needed for the lower instruments tend to interfere much less with woodwind embouchures. (generally, again) Baritone tends to be the easiest overall, probably because of the larger embouchure combined with the fact that it typically spends most of its time playing (its *tessitura) in the "middle" (easiest) range of the horn. Baritone uses only half the flow rate of the tuba. Fingerings are always the same on all brass instruments, so that is never an issue. Dont feel like you are relegated to an instrument of the same range as your woodwind. Pick whichever one your heart desires. Moreso than embochure, the issue with "switchers" tends to be flow rate and pich accuracy. Regarding flow rate: Flute uses the highest flow rate of all the woodwinds (considerably more than any other woodwind) and is almost as high as the tuba. ...but is an exception in the woodwind family. Double reeds have the lowest flow rate, and single reeds are higher, but less than brass instruments. Regarding pitch accuracy: Many sax players are used to a "push and play" situation -- where the horn takes care of the pitch. Playing a brass instrument is much more (almost completely) player controlled, as to where the player themself dictates the pitch, not the horn... so the responsibility is different. And, as always, go for a medium-large, standard model mouthpiece, regardless of the axe. *tessitura - the word most often misused by judges. Usually confused with register B)

Replying to two at once here... we are on to something -- and there is lots of commonality. Nope pretty much the same... in fact, exactly the same. With my line I use standard mouthpieces... nothing "different" for the outdoor business... and the training program I use was moreso pioneered indoors than out... basic stuff, applicable to any application. It's important to understand that in a drum corps hornline you dont have to play FFFFF the whole time.. and if you are, it's probably a less successful line. Breathing should be the same ALWAYS, PERIOD. regardless of the brass playing situation (your body already knows how to do it MUCH better than you could ever teach it to!!!!) I strongly believe that if drum corps is approached differently at all then we do ourselves a GREAT disservice. Back to "good brass playing is good brass playing" Whether it is 1, 2, 8, 16, or 64 players. On the mouthpiece thing that keeps getting rehashed... The best lines use STANDARD mouthpieces... (or fancy, overpriced copies thereof) ...the same thing that they'd use in an indoor situation. And I dont teach or expect anything different than what folks would do if they were in a concert band, orchestra, or jazz band (relative to style, of course) I make it a point to use the same equip (relative to the horns) that people would use on their axes indoors.... and those are the same exact pieces that the most succesful hornlines have used since the 1970's. ...I did not invent this whole thing :) The mouthpiece situation is SO overdone... to the point of ridiculous. It is also so often misunderstood (going back to what this thread is about) It's not rocket science and does not solve playing problems (as long as you are using standard equipment) If that's an issue, you are doing it the WRONG way!!! (going back to the addage, "if it hurts, dont do it") I'll stick by what I said... this (misguided) pedagogy issue is a BIG issue in DCA. Things are done wrong much more often than they are done right!! B) Good thread, folks!!! (I speak of / dispel many of these issues in my blog www.brassclass.blogspot.com)

but...it IS the same!! b**bs Good brass playin is GOOD BRASS PLAYIN!! (and correct, efficient, musical brass technique is correct, efficient, musical brass technique :) ) B)

Dear Original poster: Dont try to solve ANY playing problems by threads like these. Go take a lesson, please. (there is SO much pedagogical misinformation here....) Learn how to deal with the issues CORRECTLY.

All cool here. I'm about a mile from there, just north of Central park -- and to be honest I never noticed it, until my downstairs neighbor called. Naturally, it sparked a twinge of anxiety in some... Looks like an unfortunate accident (and I still wonder why they let planes fly over major cities at all...) The wreck was actually fairly close to the Mayor's Mansion. (even though the current one does not live there)

You can deal with this (and just about all playing technical issues) by removing, then re-adding variables. The variables you have when playing a brass instrument: (not musical variables, these are only technical) 1.) Wind 2.) Pitch / Song 3.) Embouchure (mouthpiece) 4.) Fingers / Valves One of the best ways that humans learn is by tearing down and building back up. When having an issue (or just building technique / learning music etc) start from the bottom: 1.) Wind... Am I using enough of / the right kind of air? 2.) Can I sing what I am trying to play (this goes for articulations and pitch both) and not letting the equipment dictate either? 3.) Can I articulate cleanly, buzz in all registers, get a "fleshy" sound on the mouthpiece alone? 4.) Are my fingers in time / using right valve combinations? Above all, am I using these elements in terms of (and ONLY in terms of) the MUSIC? ...and it is paramount to remember that we are mostly dealing with the BRAIN here, which controls everything. Mouthpieces are rarely ever that much of an impact or hindrance, or variable for that reason. They will only enhance or de-enhance what technique is already there. (I write about it here: http://brassclass.blogspot.com) Scerpella, probably the best thing to do is to take a lesson or two from a local pro. (don’t worry about them poo-pooing your drum corps habit, most pro trombone/euph playing pros will gladly, or even desperately accept your money! :D ) While impossible to tell for sure without hearing you, -- Specifically, from your description, I’ll take a guess and write some about it because it is a common issue: It sounds like your issue could be a wind issue... possibly a common instinctual / habitual delay between inhalation and exhalation (may be related to the valsalva maneuver) ...as to where you habitually build up inner pressure before every articulation. (there are several possible reasons for this habit...no need to explain them here) Glottal closing of the throat can be a facet of this as well. First of all, this inner pressure is not needed to play the horn. It is air quantity that powers the vibration of your chops, not air pressure. Here is an exercise that can help in this issue: -Off the horn, do this simple exercise: breathe in for 4 counts (to max vital capacity) and say the syllable "ONE", then breathe in and say the syllable "TWO" and so on, up to twenty or fifty or whatever you like. The important thing is to notice that when you speak (including inhalation before speech) it is impossible to have that delay / buildup of inner pressure. Your body ALREADY knows how to do it correctly. So, using speech as the model, transfer to your horn on something simplistic. Do the same exercise on a mouthpiece too if you like. (a mouthpiece "visualizer" or ring is good for this exercise as well) In all, train yourself to NOT delay at all between inhalation and exhalation (the delay can be a security blanket) Make sure your inhalation is maximal, always. Play long tones for 8 counts, expelling ALL of your capacity, then breathe in for 4 counts and have no delay in exchange to the next note (be it up the scale, whatever) and repeat. It takes time. Be patient Then, once you correct that habit (by replacing it with a better one) you can deal with the specific articulation itself, but this is much less often the issue. (as so often embouchure and articulation are not as bad as you might think, naturally) To learn more: Go HERE and show up the Sunday after Turkey Day. B) peace, joe

What? Say, if you really wanna be tough, factor in how many brass players each corps had.

Replying to several overlapping threads here... With regards to volume (now that someone actually broke out a db meter :sshh: ) One thing I dont think anyone has mentioned yet, and is probably the biggest variable in the whole deal is the NUMBER of hornline members that corps have. Cabs were the largest hornline by a lot (like 15-20 more) Buccs were smaller this year than in 05, right? Regardless of how old or new school the show, or how burly the players are, or how many valves, or symmetrical the drill.... when it comes to volume, strength in numbers always wins out. (and this effects basic crowd response) So, just a blanket comment -- those of you who complain that things are not as intense/loud/etc etc as back in the day, get out and RECRUIT more brass players for the activity!!!!! Numbers transcends programming, equipment, tradition etc... So, wanna keep things as exciting as possible?? Put more brass players on the field!!!! peace joe

I know that when ANYONE mentions "raising the bar" a bunch of people start to think "boring, academic show". That's not how it is. No way. Let go of that phobia. As an instructor, I am always trying to raise the bar... If I'm not, I'm not doing my job. "Raising the bar" is not the antithesis of entertainment. No way. Anyway... I dont see ANY of this in DCA. Not any. None. Nada. I really feel that just about ALL performers in DCA really lay it out for the crowd -- as do the designers. The ultimate goal is to excite the crowd AND the judges at the same time. No, but the judges should. That's what we've asked them to do. This is not American Idol. We dont have the audience call in and decide the winner. (should we? :) ) YOU BET. That's a cool thing about DCA vs DCI again. Last year a corps jumped SIX places in a single season. That would never ever happen in modern DCI. Now, do you know how "any given night" works? Judges judging the SHEET and having the integrity to NOT look at previous weeks' recaps!!!!!! I dont think anyone is telling you guys what you saw. I know I certainly wasnt (and I am guessing you thought I did since you quoted my whole post) I think a lot of us can agree that it is about the audience AND the back of the sheet AND the camraderie AND the people AND the competition AND the experience. I dont think anyone is trying to take entertainment out of it and alienate the audience. I just dont!! There is a nice energy in DCA. I enjoy it. Again, no one wants DCA to be DCI. If I wanted to be in DCI right now, guess where I'd be?? Ok enough of this -- I am having old time RAMD flashbacks now. The rest of you can have the last word -- no more DCP for me for the time being. I gotta go get ready for the weekend!!!! Lots to take care of before I abandon my poor wife for 2 1/2 days!! See ya all up there. B) joe