Morgoth Bauglir

People obviously don't understand internet lingo or leetspeak

9 Snares 4-5 Tenors 5 Basses 5 Cymbals 4 Marimba 4 Vibe 1 Xylo 1 Timp 2 Aux

To me, the whole thing seemed like one of those WGI drumline shows that tries too hard to be deep and ends up not making any sense.

Well you can use ZUD or BKF if you don't really care about scratching your cyms and taking most of the tone out. But if you care what they sound like after you're done cleaning, go ahead and use the new Zildjian liquid cleaner. Yeah, your going to have some rags, but that is true no matter what. If you are going to clean 20 cymbals, don't ruin $10,000+ worth of instruments by destroying them with abrazive metal cleaners like ZUD. BKF is a little better, but I would only use that if they cmys are already in prertty bad shape sound wise.

You see, the plan is to injure all of the guard and brass judges (yes even the ones in the box) duiring the show, so their scores are discounted. That way only visual and percussion scores are tabulated.

Me, all of the above jobs.

That's kind of the point. Their use of the dot system allows that stuff to be executed. The members don't have to think about all the crazy-ness going on around them. They just have Point A to Point B. The beauty is when all of the members are thinking about their own jobs, then we the audience see the whole visual unit. It's like a clock. Each individual part has no job but it't own. But as a unit the true function of all the parts is evident. When the performer does not have to think about the form, just himself, that is when the great drill becomes possible.

So I guess the question is, which is better? Fo something to be right, or just good enough to not notice.

Hey Kev, Thanks for choosing The Crossmen. It really is a great corps to be with. I just aged out of there on cymbals. Truly one of my greatest experiances. What everyone said on here is right on. Some corps may be all about chops and cut a bunch of kids friday night. That's not Bone's style. The Crossmen are all about personality and attitude. One bit of advide I can add to the list. Get to know people. Even the first night. Go talk to people. Other potential rookies, vets, volunteers. You would be suprised at how much your personality and attitude comes into play when the staff are making the cuts. They will not always pick the guys who can play the fast notes or have the best tone. But they will always pick the best people that come together as a team. they know that stuff like fast hands and good breath support will come along. But they are not gonna pick a guy who doesnt get along with people or doesnt like to talk to the rest of the corps, no matter how sweet his chops are. Go say thanks to the volunteers. That first night, when all the vets are in their little groups in the gym talking about how we got shafted last year :P , go up and introduce yourself to some vets in your section. Go talk to Josh Kelly. He's the one getting shot down by all the chicks. The staff will see how you interact with the corps, the volunteers and them. If they think you will be a great member of the team, the chops will come later. And if you don't make it this year, come back. Let's say they tell you Saturday afternoon they don't feel you're ready for a spot. Ask them if you can keep playing with the line on Sunday. That kind of attitude and dedication will make an impression. And they will remember it next year. Trust me. My tech told me flat out last year. They picked the 5 of us cause we worked well as a line. Oh yeah, and if they give out anything technique or excercise-wise before the camp. Learn it. Give it your best shot. Nothing makes a bad impression more than looking like you didn't care enough to come prepared. Even if it isnt nails, show you really tried. They will think more of you for that than the vet who comes it not remembering the music cause he thinks he has already got a spot. Good luck with BONES!

I may be wrong, but I think some people are missing the point of his post. I don't believe he is suggesting that anyone play the actual song "Young Persons Guide to Orchestra". I think he is suggestiong someone writing a completely new piece about drum corps and calling it "Young Persons Guide to Drum Corps" and then using it in a show. possibly with narration. Therefore telling us that group X did YPGO without narration is not really relevant. Just my take on this post.

That whole show is amazing. The drums are kinda fuzzy, but their book is awesome. 2000 is definately my favorite BD show.

Machine Gun Lullabuy-The Untouchables-SCV 01

I think that is a great part. It is a good feeling writing drill on a computer and knowing that if it works on the screen it will probably work on the field. You can see the transitions, it tells you the step size required and you can tell if there will be collisions. All the things you need to know if it will work. Knowing that the performers don't need to worry about anything other than where they need to go lets you do a lot more. Blind pass through, crazy rotations/expansions, ect are all a lot easier with dot based marching.

Well if there was a "do the same visuals every year and play a few sizzles" caption, they sould sure win that. :P But I think lines like Aftermath and Mystique would kick them around for everything else.

But the problem with that is still causality. If one person in the middles messes it up, it isnt just a mistake or wasted rep for them, it a waste for everyone behind them. Each person should work on getting their show, correct and consistent. That way if one or 2 people are still having trouble, the rest of the line doesnt have to keep practicing it the wrong way until they figure it out. And no probably not all instructors do that. But I have marched in 3 different Div 1 corps and have experianced it every summer.

I agree, but all those things involve adjusting a form within a few inches. Part of their foot is already on the dot, just a very minor correction needs to take place. Of course the Cavies probably adjust this way. But other corps value form to the point of making people 4 or 5 steps off their charted dot. The reason why cavies drill is so good and everyone else has yet to reach that level: When the cavies set up a line and guiding the form would put people more than a few inches off, they actually set it off their dots to fix the CAUSE of the problem. When other corps set up a line, they just tell everyone to guide the form no matter what. When the guy on the end is off by 3 steps the vis techs just say "it looks fine, the judges don't have the drill".

If the person really is on their dot, and it still looks bad. Fix the people who are creating the problem. Don't make the guy who is actually doing his job wrong just so he can blend in. That may make it look alright now, but it does nothing to adress the real problem of the drill and it will just get worse. Ideally, everyone should be able to say "But I'm on my dot". And when I hear that as a vis tech, I don't get mad. I refuse to yell at someone for doing their job. I give them drill, they march that drill, I can't fault them for that. Just casue it may look like they are wrong doesnt mean they are. You don't treat symptoms, you treat the problem. Find out what is really going on and fix that guy, not the guy who is left out in the dust who is only trying to follow the drill he was given.

This is a topic that quite frankly, gets me quite angry at times. I have marched 3 years div I and 2 years PIW indoor. I also have been writnig drill and helping visual programs for a few years. In most high school situations I would say form. But we are not talk ing about high school here. We are talking about drum corps. With that in mind, I am 100% behind marching dots. Here's why. Personal Accountability Each performer should know their stuff like their were born knowing it. Marching forms tends to allow individuals to coast along on other people's hard work. To many times you have guys in the snare line who only know how to "dress center". When you make the cleanliness of the drill dependant on other people, you make the performers dependant on others. And that is dangerously close to laziness and leeching off of others talent and work. Someone told me that there is no such thing as a "line player." Meaning, if you can't play the notes by yourself, you can't play them with the line. You are either contributing to the ensemble or you are hurting it. And when you rely on others to march the drill well while you just follow along, you are not contrinuting. Consistancy When you march forms, you will never do the same thing twice. It is as simple as that. The step size you had in rep #7 during visual block will not be the same as rep #3 or #9. Or what you do in the run through. And who knows what might happen during the show. The whole point of practicing is to make something happen the same way EVERY time. And when you have so many people all looking to someone else to figure out what is right, it will always be a mess. Even with dress points, it only takes 1 brain fart or missed direction/change to ruin the drill for 30+ people. Worry about your own job Along the same lines, if you march dots, you only have to worry about your own show. You don't need to think "Is Steve the mello player going to do it right today? Or is he going to take to small steps and screw me over?". Just know your show, and march it well. If Steve flubs his drill, the staff will see it and take care of it. Elimination of "Junior Staff Members" And it should be just the staff taking care of it. Or at most, section leaders. With forms, people are notorious for being "junior instructors". People who always tell others to adjust to them. Of course they are never wrong. You might be inclined to call these people "dot nazis". Well everyone should be a dot nazi. If they are on their dot, get on yours and the drill will be fine. If they are wrong, get on your dot and they will look wrong. And the staff will fix them. Just worry about your own show and let others worry about theirs. It's how we play music When you learn music in drum corps. Do you just follow the people next to you? Or are you supposed to know the notes, articulation, shaping, ect yourself? We have sheet music. You are supposed to memorize it. This is true for every ensemble out their. I do not know of one group that does not stress the acccuracy of the written show. Sure there are times when the horns listen to the battery for time, or the snare match heights. But if 1 trumpet comes in early, is the rest of the section supposed to jump the gun with him? If the center snare drops a stick and is out for a bar, is the whole line supposed to stop playing? No. You play your own book like the arranger wants. Cascade Failure/Effect One of the worst problems with marching forms. What might be a small mistake to 1 person in 1 set might completely screw someone else over a few sets later. If you are suppsed to dress down a line and the guys on the end make it to shallow or their intervals are too small, what happens 2 moves later when you had a set that was suppsosed to be a 4 to 5 but is now impossible? Stuff like that happend to me all the time when I marched. A guy on the end would have really small steps, so he wouldnt really concentrate on his drill for that move. While people on the other end, end up paying for his mistakes by having to make massive and awkward, sometime impossible corrections. The drill is written so everyone can perform it. We all learned in math class that the farther away from the starting point of a line you get, the bigger the changes in the angle are. So if you are lining a field and your where you start painting is off by 1 inch where you are, it might set the line off 5 feet on the other end of the field. That same stuff happens in drill. And when you have 20+ baritones who are all human beings relying on the 2 guys at the end with small steps, it is a recipe for disater. I know I have been screwed over more times than I can count from just that kind of thing. Good luck trying pass throughs when people are just dress intervals that are too small. You don't solve a problem by creating more We have all been in those drill rehearsals. The ones about halfway through tour, when drill is getting changed and people are starting to get on each others nerves. You are on the field and 1 set just isnt hitting the way it should. You raise your hand to ask if it can be fixed, but the vis guys want to move on. So when you say, "my dot is 3.5 outside the 35B and 8 behind the front hash", they just yell and say "I don't care what your dot is, the judge doesnt have your drill, just get in the form." I ask you, what did that fix? Nothing. The source of the problem is still there. And it will keep happening until the guy who is causing the problem get's his head out of his ### and checks his dot book. But if you march dots, this situation would not even occur. Everyone just gets on their dot and the one guy who is spacing out looks wrong, and the vis techs fix it. When you rely on others to march your drill, when they do something wrong, every one else needs to do something wrong to "fix" it. But it's still wrong. And 2 weeks later, when they ask why that form is so off, you can't just tell the staff it's because they ignored the problem 12 days ago and it just kept getting worse every time the line "adjusted". Does all this mean that the members should just stare at the ground and ignore the rest of the corps? No. But I belive that far to many ensemble who start out with dot books and mark things off abandon it too quickly in favor of quick fixes. Near the end of the season, the emphasis should be on form. But only when the corps is good enough with their dots so that the biggest correction is maybe .5 to 1 step. And in visual block, when checking a form, it should ALWAYS be dots. The last saturday morning you should still have your dot book out their. Of course by then you should have it memorized so well you can tell the vis staff what page the the grass stains or scribble marks are on without looking at it. Too many ensembles don't force their members to memorize their dots, and it just causes more problems in the end. In a performnace and in practice you should always be aware of what is going on around you. To not do so is dangerous. But that is never an excuse to abandon what you should have been practicing the same way all day. We all know doing something differnt in a show is what causes the most amount of problems. So why teach a method that casues that by it's very nature?

Any idea on how people are being chosen? And do you know if they are marching cymbals?

Mike, I hate to say it, but you lost all of your respect points in my book.

And for the record, the Maltese Cross has been around for several hundred years. It's not a nazi thing.

Becky Terry. No one knows or loves the Crossmen like she does.

Theme from Band of Brothers Theme from FF7

The whole "cymbals/multi percussion/pit" thing has been tried. And with not so pleasant results. For a few years, the Glassmen cymbals were in the pit at certain parts of the show. It was somewhat effective. But it also dimiished the quality of either area due to haveing to split time between 2 completely different sections and teacher. I was in a G-Cym line that did this. It was a logistical nightmare. Not getting to march basics half of the time becuase we had to work on marimba or auxiliary percussion technique. Tracking one song with the battery in the parking lot, then having to find the pit to rehearse another song, then back to the battery. Being part of 2 sections was complete nonsense and I would not wish it upon anyone. And people who don't think that the fine techniqes and sounds of cymbals can't fit into a show are just misinformed. Listen to Glassmen 99 or Bluecoats 01. There is some phenominal writing in those shows, especially Coats 01. The problem is not that cymbals cannot fit in or add to the ensemble, they do so quite well. The problem is that too many arrangers and caption heads haven't a clue how to write effectivly for cymbals. You hear donwbeat crashes and hi hats on 2 and 4 and think it sounds stupid and is a waste of 5 spots. YOU'RE RIGHT. The lack of quality writing and instruction is a good reason to be skeptical of cymbals lines. But that does not mean that the art of cymbals itself is a wast and should not be attempted. When you hear it done right, like in Coats 01, it all makes sense. And it is clearly worth the 5 spots. Especially when all the corps that cut their cym lines for more horn spots were still looking to fill horn holes in July.

I have to somewhat disagree with Bluefan. It is true that cymbals lines in WGI are continuing to become popular and improve. But as a member of a WGI PIW line and tech of a PSA line, I have seen quite a few cym lines in the past few years. While some are improving, the vast majority IMO are still lacking even basic understanding of the way cymbals work and how to play them properly. There are a few lines like Mystique, Aftermath, and some recent RX lines that have definately done the art justice. But even at the PIW level I see cymbal lines that cannot even play a proper crash. Without experianced tech who know the technique from hours fo drum corps practice, there simply are not enough learned individuals out there to really make the art form grow. Too many lines just try to copy what they have seen SCV or other lines doing, without really know how those lines make it work. And it ends up sounding terrible. Next time you see a WGI cym line, look and listen. I mean really look and listen. It is easy to do a few visuals and play Hi Hats on 2 and 4 and make it look alright. But if you really pay attention, like people do when they are watching a snare line, you will see many things that should be fixed. At the scholastic level, many lines do not even have instructors. It is not hard for pretty much any WGI level line of any class to find at least 1 or 2 guys who have played snare or tenors in some drum corps. At Worlds, you can see many many high school lines that are actually pretty good. But with cymbals, that is not the case. So yes I think the death of DCI cymbal lines is hampering the development of WGI a great deal. Every other section in a WGI line has a DCI counterpart, and becaue of that, the members who wish to excel, have an outlet to do so. Cymbals do not, and remain unrefined and amature because of it.