Santa Clara Vanguard

[Machine]

My impression from seeing them in Columbus last week was that they were not yet comfortable enough with the show to "sell" it. They were performing well but didn't have the intensity and passion that BD had that night. This was reflected in their low GE scores (Music). However, what's troubling now is that with everyone competing together, SCV is coming in 6th and 7th in performance captions when they were doing quite well in them earlier in the season (Colorguard specifically).

But, there is still 4 weeks to go with 4 points between them and the lead pack. I'm not too concerned yet. I'm cautiously optimistic that this corps is like the '97 corps that bit off a lot at the beginning of the season, was 4 points back with 4 weeks to go, and ultimately tied for 1st at Quarterfinals. Even last year they didn't click until the last 2 weeks of the season. They were behind Crown and 4 points behind Bluecoats in Atlanta on July 29th. By Semi-Finals they were less than a 1/10th from 4th place.

Long story short..... The season isn't over yet! B)

[Tone Quality Matters]

Don't start with me.

Though I don't post often, I have a tendency to go off on these boards on people like you who needlessly push buttons. I'll excuse your rude response to my post and reply with perhaps more clarity to accommodate for your small-minded ability to get the point.

Why you would choose to put words in my mouth I'm not sure, but you only show yourself to be ignorant. Did I say anything about "every other corps out there being just trendy or just acceptable?" The original poster was looking for thoughts and opinions of what was going on regarding SCV 2007, I offered mine. Good grief.

You get a pass this time because I'm assuming that you have no idea how I've responded to idiocy in the past, however...

You should really think about your posts before placing them out here in DCP land. :angry2:

1) I didn't ask you for a pass

2) You chose the words you wrote in your response, I didn't.

3) No one said you couldn't have an opinion

4) I took the time to read your post more than once, and came to the same conclusions.

I think posters like you think too much about shows, and don't enjoy them for what they are. Take your instructor hat off once in a while and take in what all corps do. Stop taking yourself so seriously and enjoy the entertainment value of all corps once in a while. Posters like you drive me crazy, analyzing every detail of a corps, and then waxing divinely about where each corps falters.

Here are some of your words from your original post for clarification.

"I last saw SCV in Normal, IL. I thought they were at another level (higher) than both Cavies and Bluecoats, and I loved their show. At that time they were standing still for the last minute of their show, so it was acceptable for them to take third that night. I'm admittedly biased, but I'm also able to be honest with myself in assessing what was performed that evening. SCV was cleaner, more powerful, and to me, performed at a clearly higher level of excellence, but that doesn't seem to be what it takes to win these days. Many years ago, I learned to give up on the subjective nature of this activity. To me, there is no reasonable explanation for what's going on, it just is what it is."

Based on this paragraph, SCV is on a different "level" than everyone else. How can this be read an other way? I agree that SCV is a championship caliber corps every year and consistently performs great shows, but is it possible that other corps were on a higher level of excellence on finals night the past few summers?

"I will say this, that evening in Normal, both Rosemont and Canton performances left me with strong impressions of what I would call "band shows." That's not a criticism, but just an opinion. Though I am a fan of the Cavaliers, I was not a fan of the "007" and "Our Kind of Town" Cavalier shows for the same reason. However, "Machine" was awesome, and with the exception of a couple of years in the 1990's, I haven't really been excited by Bluecoats since 1988 (Wow, that's almost twenty years ago!).

Band shows?? Not hardly, but you are entitiled to your opinion.

"Santa Clara's attitude about who they are (along with their sense of tradition and strong classy identity) simply appeals to me more, and somehow, they continue to be innovative and progressive in their approach to design and performance."

I take nothing away for SCV. They are a class organization, and always have been. However the other corps around them also have their own styles, traditions, and innovative ways of doing things.

I guess everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.

[SCVTeerav]

I guess everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.

Wow I've been watching this mindless palaver for some time and I have to agree with the poster with whom you are constantly debating. I think your missing the point entirely and interpreting and responding to it in a combative way. In short... chill man. Your counterpoints are elementary and do nothing to progress your point of view except to repeat what you had already stated and had been properly responded to by the previous poster. In short you sound like a kid who keeps asking "why?"

$.02

peace

[Wadep66]

Don't start with me.

Though I don't post often, I have a tendency to go off on these boards on people like you who needlessly push buttons. I'll excuse your rude response to my post and reply with perhaps more clarity to accommodate for your small-minded ability to get the point.

I mentioned the "Machine" show in acknowledgment of my enjoyment of that program in particular. I never said it was traditional, nor did I say that I dislike any shows that are not traditional or similar to Santa Clara's approach to design and performance. I simply said that SCV's style appeals to me more, and that I believe it does not appeal to the current trends that are recognized and rewarded by the judging community. I also said that I am a Cavalier fan, but didn't particularly enjoy two of their previous programs, added to the fact that I also said I was biased toward SCV. Maybe unlike you, I have the ability to prefer a particular approach to the design of corps shows that are more rooted in fundamental aspects of the activity from a historical perspective, and still enjoy the performances of other corps with styles that are different, styles that seem to reflect design aspects that are more accepted from today's adjudicators. Finally, I said that I've gotten past trying to make sense of the subjective nature of judging, and that I prefer to enjoy a corps (SCV in this case, but there are obviously others) program that most closely meets my personal definiton of a "drum corps show."

I happen to be a fan, designer, and instructor within the Marching Band Activity, and have enjoyed it very much for many years, and still do.

I simply prefer a time when the differences between both activities were more defined and diverse from a compositional standpoint. In my opinion (and I am certain that people are still allowed to have their own opinions), the differences between the two activities are becoming more and more subtle as time goes by. Some people enjoy that, others do not, but it doesn’t mean that those that prefer more emphasis on traditional design lose the ability to appreciate the work and effort that is being made by others.

Why you would choose to put words in my mouth I'm not sure, but you only show yourself to be ignorant. Did I say anything about "every other corps out there being just trendy or just acceptable?" The original poster was looking for thoughts and opinions of what was going on regarding SCV 2007, I offered mine. Good grief.

You get a pass this time because I'm assuming that you have no idea how I've responded to idiocy in the past, however...

You should really think about your posts before placing them out here in DCP land. :angry2:

Wow. Don't make the mean thing mad! No telling what he might do! Help!

Good grief. This is a place to share opinions, not win your way. Go back to your sandbox.

Sheesh!

[2000Cadet]

Disclaimer: My bias is obvious, and I won't seen anyone live until Pasadena. I watched all of the evening show Webcast.

Hey, I won't lie, I'm quite disappointed, and Vanguard is looking at an uphill battle from here on out, no doubt about it. There's no question that it's always better to be the lead horse than playing catch-up (the view's better, for one thing). However, I think there are a couple of factors that make the situation look worse than it is.

1) Reading the reviews on DCP, I get the sense that Santa Clara has had several flat shows over the past 10 days or so. If it's true that the judges are a lagging indicator, then maybe they were due for a spanking tonight no matter what.

2) The spread is a point larger than it was before, and that's bad if it's a trend, but four points from 1-7 is still #### tight, especially considering the next factor.

3) I think people are overlooking that the schedule is radically different this year, and may be giving too much weight to tonight's outcome as a result. IIRC, Murfreesboro and Atlanta are typically two weeks before finals, when rankings are usually starting to settle. A four-point deficit two weeks before finals is dire; a four-point deficit four weeks before finals is certainly not great, but not dire either. IMO, all talk of "tiers" within the top seven still quite premature.

Without getting into specifics, I think each of top three (for now!) has significant design flaws. Fantastic execution can compensate at this point in the season, but that may not be the case as more and more corps move into box 5. Conversely, I think each of the top seven has a plausible path to the championship (some more plausible than others, obviously).

Of the replies to Taquann's original question, IMO everybody except Bob Somers has been totally off base.

I think the four point spread from 1st to 7th shows how good these corps are this year. I just think it would have been nice to see SCV up in the top three again. You all offer some very interesting insight to my question. Someone brought it up before, but there is still a month left in the season so I am hoping SCV can pull something out to get into the top three. But if they don't, it's still all good because from what I see on the scoreboard, ALL these corps in the top 7 are spectacular. Good luck to them, no less.

[Tone Quality Matters]

I guess everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.

Wow I've been watching this mindless palaver for some time and I have to agree with the poster with whom you are constantly debating. I think your missing the point entirely and interpreting and responding to it in a combative way. In short... chill man. Your counterpoints are elementary and do nothing to progress your point of view except to repeat what you had already stated and had been properly responded to by the previous poster. In short you sound like a kid who keeps asking "why?"

$.02

peace

Are you speaking to me, or to the other poster?

Edited July 15, 2007 by Tone Quality Matters

[2000Cadet]

Geez, I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a biotch session.

[Tone Quality Matters]

Geez, I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a biotch session.

No, your question was legit man.

I am not Biotching, just discussing things.

[nemesiscorps]

1) I didn't ask you for a pass

2) You chose the words you wrote in your response, I didn't.

3) No one said you couldn't have an opinion

4) I took the time to read your post more than once, and came to the same conclusions.

I think posters like you think too much about shows, and don't enjoy them for what they are. Take your instructor hat off once in a while and take in what all corps do. Stop taking yourself so seriously and enjoy the entertainment value of all corps once in a while. Posters like you drive me crazy, analyzing every detail of a corps, and then waxing divinely about where each corps falters.

Here are some of your words from your original post for clarification.

"I last saw SCV in Normal, IL. I thought they were at another level (higher) than both Cavies and Bluecoats, and I loved their show. At that time they were standing still for the last minute of their show, so it was acceptable for them to take third that night. I'm admittedly biased, but I'm also able to be honest with myself in assessing what was performed that evening. SCV was cleaner, more powerful, and to me, performed at a clearly higher level of excellence, but that doesn't seem to be what it takes to win these days. Many years ago, I learned to give up on the subjective nature of this activity. To me, there is no reasonable explanation for what's going on, it just is what it is."

Based on this paragraph, SCV is on a different "level" than everyone else. How can this be read an other way? I agree that SCV is a championship caliber corps every year and consistently performs great shows, but is it possible that other corps were on a higher level of excellence on finals night the past few summers?

"I will say this, that evening in Normal, both Rosemont and Canton performances left me with strong impressions of what I would call "band shows." That's not a criticism, but just an opinion. Though I am a fan of the Cavaliers, I was not a fan of the "007" and "Our Kind of Town" Cavalier shows for the same reason. However, "Machine" was awesome, and with the exception of a couple of years in the 1990's, I haven't really been excited by Bluecoats since 1988 (Wow, that's almost twenty years ago!).

Band shows?? Not hardly, but you are entitiled to your opinion.

"Santa Clara's attitude about who they are (along with their sense of tradition and strong classy identity) simply appeals to me more, and somehow, they continue to be innovative and progressive in their approach to design and performance."

I take nothing away for SCV. They are a class organization, and always have been. However the other corps around them also have their own styles, traditions, and innovative ways of doing things.

I guess everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.

1) I didn't ask you for a pass.

I would speculate that you perhaps have a history of asking for passes to be excused from a classroom in your early school days, where learning (that you perhaps missed) may have been going on, which may be an explanation for why you're here on this thread presenting yourself in the manner that you are, seemingly starving of intellect. (I know that was cruel, but I'm really just sparring with you.)

2) You chose the words you wrote in your response, I didn't.

And you chose to interpret them in the twisted manner that you have, even upon further clarification.

3) No one said you couldn't have an opinion

But you decided to initiate an attack with your "you should really think about your posts before placing them out here in DCP land."

4) I took the time to read your post more than once, and came to the same conclusions.

Because you appear to be closed-minded and obviously looking for an argument.

I think posters like you think too much about shows, and don't enjoy them for what they are. Take your instructor hat off once in a while and take in what all corps do. Stop taking yourself so seriously and enjoy the entertainment value of all corps once in a while. Posters like you drive me crazy, analyzing every detail of a corps, and then waxing divinely about where each corps falters.

A perfect example of my assessment of you. According to you, I "think too much about corps shows;" "don't enjoy them for what they are;" and should "take [my] instructor hat off once in a while and take in what all corps do." All because I shared an opinion to the topic of his thread. Where is all this personal attack coming from?

Here are some of your words from your original post for clarification.

"I last saw SCV in Normal, IL. I thought they were at another level (higher) than both Cavies and Bluecoats, and I loved their show. At that time they were standing still for the last minute of their show, so it was acceptable for them to take third that night. I'm admittedly biased, but I'm also able to be honest with myself in assessing what was performed that evening. SCV was cleaner, more powerful, and to me, performed at a clearly higher level of excellence, but that doesn't seem to be what it takes to win these days. Many years ago, I learned to give up on the subjective nature of this activity. To me, there is no reasonable explanation for what's going on, it just is what it is."

Based on this paragraph, SCV is on a different "level" than everyone else. How can this be read an other way? I agree that SCV is a championship caliber corps every year and consistently performs great shows, but is it possible that other corps were on a higher level of excellence on finals night the past few summers?

In addition to enjoying great performances, is it not the very nature of a drum corps contest for even casual observers to evaluate levels of performance and content from corps to corps on a given night? From judges to toddlers, most come away with a variety of impressions and preferences of products or moments on the field... these are called "opinions," and there's nothing wrong with holding an opinion that a particular corps was performing at a higher level on any given night.

"Santa Clara's attitude about who they are (along with their sense of tradition and strong classy identity) simply appeals to me more, and somehow, they continue to be innovative and progressive in their approach to design and performance."

I take nothing away for SCV. They are a class organization, and always have been. However the other corps around them also have their own styles, traditions, and innovative ways of doing things. [/b]

The fact that those same ideas have been expressed by me to you... twice, and have somehow still escaped your intellect is evident that this issue is beyond your ability to engage in civil discussion or debate. Well, I think it's clear what I'm dealing with here.

I guess everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.[/b]

Not everyone, but clearly some. Read all of the above... maybe more than twice this time.

I'll leave you alone before you continue to embarrass yourself through further exposure of ignorance. Enough of you.

Enjoy the season, I know I will.

P.S. To the mods: I have officially removed myself from this obviously senseless debate with this person. I will no longer participate in dragging it down and off topic. You have my word that I will respond no further to that... person. I hope you will allow this legit topic/thread to continue, as you'll get no more bad behavior from me. I am now officially growing up.

"GO VANGUARD!"

[NDNation]

So every other corps out there is just trendy and or just acceptable? Everyone elses show except Santa Clara Vanguards isn't an actual "drum corps" show then?

You contradicted yourself when you spoke about the Cavaliers " Machine " being awesome then, because Cavies show in 2006 was anything but traditional.

We can both agree that that show was indeed "Awesome"

You should really think about your posts before placing them out here in DCP land.

:sshh:

LOL!!!!!! This from someone who's tag line reads "Warning: My opinion may be different from yours."

In other words, please do not judge my opinion since it's probably just too brilliant for you to understand. I, however, will provide you a juvenile and intolerant slam to an anything I do not agree with or that requires me to accomodate a new thought or idea.

What a joke...