A quick peek at the DCI Southeastern recaps

[DCfan76]

You don't care about 2007? :P

OOPS!!!

Well, OK... 2007 too.

[JMS0527]

I think its interesting that on last night's Field Pass interview with Rondo, Dan discussed with him how ESPN is asking for more critical commentary -- how/why a corps places where they do, and that the commentators like Rondo are going to have to step up and give it.

This is a wonderful idea...

Obviously you don't bash a corps to a pulp and be an ######## about it...you just point out some problems that really stuck out at you..."they didn't do *insert concept here* very well, and it could affect them *insert how much here*"

This whole lovey dovey "the world is a giant green M&M" philosophy needs to take a break every now and then

[oldbandguy]

I think that the more DCI gets into the public view and especially via ESPN, then the judging is going to have to become more explainable and more verifiable.

That hasn't happened in skating or gymnastics. both of which have MUCH more exposure to the

public than drum corps will ever have. It still boils down to subjective OPINIONS which can't be

"verified".

[vferrera]

That hasn't happened in skating or gymnastics. both of which have MUCH more exposure to the

public than drum corps will ever have. It still boils down to subjective OPINIONS which can't be

"verified".

Skating and gymnastics both have better systems, IMO. For example, if you fall or fail to complete a required element, there is a mandatory deduction. Also certain moves have a defined point range that you score within depending on how well you perform the move. In drum corps, you can have a 2/3's finished show and still win.

But this is not a surprise since skating and gymnastics are concerned about the audience (skating in particular, given that it has a professional side as well). The scoring systems are designed to make sense and appear fair. In drum corps, the scoring system seems to have been designed with no consideration of the audience. The average fan is repeated told that only "experts" can judge, i.e. don't even try to understand it.

In fact, it's even worse, because captions that seem to be audience related, i.e. GE, are judged in a counterintuitive manner. So people see corps scoring high in GE for programs that are effective to the judges, but not to the average fan. This causes confusion, and eventually people lose interest.

[Michael Boo]

I choose E) All of the above :)

Oh.. and great dissection Boo. :)

Thanks. It was all I could really do in about 15 minutes, so I might have been quickly grabbing for context here and there, but it's a fun exercise.

[GmenBari78]

Skating and gymnastics both have better systems, IMO. For example, if you fall or fail to complete a required element, there is a mandatory deduction. Also certain moves have a defined point range that you score within depending on how well you perform the move. In drum corps, you can have a 2/3's finished show and still win.

But this is not a surprise since skating and gymnastics are concerned about the audience (skating in particular, given that it has a professional side as well). The scoring systems are designed to make sense and appear fair. In drum corps, the scoring system seems to have been designed with no consideration of the audience. The average fan is repeated told that only "experts" can judge, i.e. don't even try to understand it.

In fact, it's even worse, because captions that seem to be audience related, i.e. GE, are judged in a counterintuitive manner. So people see corps scoring high in GE for programs that are effective to the judges, but not to the average fan. This causes confusion, and eventually people lose interest.

Yes, my point exactly, and also my worry -- as we get more exposed to public view via ESPN, this judging system is not going to fly with the average crowd...

I guess hearing these commentators and the show sponsor Coltrin talk on Field Pass in Atlanta about trying to get more exposure of drum corps via ESPN etc and the questions that Dan Potter asked of Rondo about commentary really sparked my thought about all this. I am not confident we can get there without changes to the judging system...

[drumcat]

Can I ask a theoretical point?

If a show doesn't change from one night to the next, how can the repertoire score change? Obviously execution is different night to night, but as a true theoretical point (not in reality really), if you were to march the same sets in two nights, how can anyone justify a rep score change?

[Blueemrld8]

I think we can all relate to Harvey's frustration at some time (even at many times) in our drum corps fandom.

I actually heard two judges talking to each other last year: "Your'e right, I should have put (corps) one place higher." Oh great, I thought - who's going to let the kids know? Also - are you going to tell the next show's judges that you made this mistake, or just let it go and hope for the best?

The problem for the fans is that judging seems to happen within some sort of secret society. We see scores, but never get an explanation for the score... which, as Harvey pointed out, can flip-flop change - depending on the panel. So we are left with our own explanations = slotting and conspiracy theories.

I guess the answer is (as much as I hate to admit it) that judges are mere humans that are going to make mistakes. My only hope is that the mistakes they make don't mark a particular corps in a particular slot with no chance to move. Because they're not affecting numbers, they are affecting the kids who have poured their hearts into this thing. As one corps director put it: "I hope they judge the show tonight, not the uniform." In their defense, maybe it takes all eight weeks before all the judges can come to an agreement of what "good" really is for that season and who should be a finalist, in what order.

I think a wonderful solution would be for DCI to put on a web-cast judges clinic for the fans. Give us an example of a box 3, 4, 5... and WHY. What does it mean when you put that score down? And where did that number come from? Heck, I would pay money to tune in to that, and I'm sure a lot more of you Drum Corps nuts would do the same. And, who knows, it might even help us all feel better about what we see. Knowledge is a good thing.

Here's wishing everyone a wonderful finish to the 2008 season!!

AWESOME idea... where do i sign??? :)

[Tekneek]

Can I ask a theoretical point?

If a show doesn't change from one night to the next, how can the repertoire score change? Obviously execution is different night to night, but as a true theoretical point (not in reality really), if you were to march the same sets in two nights, how can anyone justify a rep score change?

I would guess that a rep score change is due to your 'selling' of the show design/writing. It seems plausible that you could do such a bad job executing a show that they cannot tell just how difficult it really is.

[Medeabrass]

Skating and gymnastics both have better systems, IMO. For example, if you fall or fail to complete a required element, there is a mandatory deduction. Also certain moves have a defined point range that you score within depending on how well you perform the move. In drum corps, you can have a 2/3's finished show and still win.

But this is not a surprise since skating and gymnastics are concerned about the audience (skating in particular, given that it has a professional side as well). The scoring systems are designed to make sense and appear fair. In drum corps, the scoring system seems to have been designed with no consideration of the audience. The average fan is repeated told that only "experts" can judge, i.e. don't even try to understand it.

In fact, it's even worse, because captions that seem to be audience related, i.e. GE, are judged in a counterintuitive manner. So people see corps scoring high in GE for programs that are effective to the judges, but not to the average fan. This causes confusion, and eventually people lose interest.

What a coincidence that you guys are discussing this on a thread started by Mr. Boo. Before I read your post, I sent him an email asking if he could do an article on dci.org that takes some of the mystery out of our judging system. I'd like to know what's going throug the minds of the judges too. At the very least, I'd like more explanation on what the subcaptions are and how they relate to each other.

edit: problems spelling one letter words

Edited July 17, 2007 by Medeabrass