Cavalier Show Design

[cire]

:blah:

Here's all the research I need to do:

Cavaliers...59 years...20 National Championships

PR...51 years...1 National Championship

knew someone would say this.

national championships? come on.. this is DCI. get over yourself

[usmcontra]

This reminds me of two things:

1) another contra player I used to march with who would say things like, "It's hot," or "We haven't had a water break in a while," or similar things. When we'd tell him to quit #####ing, he'd say, "I'm not #####ing. I'm simply stating the facts."

Usually, when I start a sentence with, "I'm really tired of," it's not something I'm juuuust observing and have no opinion about.

2) the opposite of what I call "The Marocco Syndrome," named after my old roommate in the Marines. "Why do I always get in trouble for the same things other people do?" he would ask. "I don't know," I would reply, "but maybe you should stop doing those things."

Some corps seem to enjoy doing things their way and then #####ing about their lack of success. It's always someone else's fault. It would be like me going out and driving 50 mph down a 30 mph road simply because I think the speed limit should be changed then getting upset when I get pulled over. Sure, I could go and try to get the speed limit changed, but until then maybe I should slow down or face the consequences.

Also, I would say it's harder to play well when marching then to march well when playing, but maybe that's just me.

Edited July 16, 2007 by usmcontra

[lrg8683]

Excuse me, but it is very funny when you say they are only playing quarter notes. When I listen to their shows, I hear many of other rhythms going on. Secondly, they have had hornlines that play with great precision, articulation, tuning, etc. This is what wins championships, not the number of notes being played. I better you would have to practice to play their "easy crap" at a championship level. Their stuff isn't easy, it sounds easy maybe, because they play it so very well. I have heard great concert bands make Persichetti sound wonderfully easy because they are great. Listen to the US Marine Band, they can make any selection sound easy, even if it isn't.

One last thing, those cool gimmicks add GE. How come you're not mentioning Cadets using pink tables, a rabbit, etc. I don't hear anybody griping about the over use of narration in shows. I'm not just talking about Cadets, how about Blue Devil dance show. How about 1985 SCV and the tunnel? There have been gimmicks in shows for over 25+ years.

because the OP was talking about the cavies.. and yes the cadets are gimmick friendly.. and the BD dance show.. although i thought it was a cool concept..i hated every minute of that show.

[euponitone]

This reminds me of two things:

1) another contra player I used to march with who would say things like, "It's hot," or "We haven't had a water break in a while," or similar things. When we'd tell him to quit #####ing, he'd say, "I'm not #####ing. I'm simply stating the facts."

Usually, when I start a sentence with, "I'm really tired of," it's not something I'm juuuust observing and have no opinion about.

2) the opposite of what I call "The Marocco Syndrome," named after my old roommate in the Marines. "Why do I always get in trouble for the same things other people do?" he would ask. "I don't know," I would reply, "but maybe you should stop doing those things."

Some corps seem to enjoy doing things their way and then #####ing about their lack of success. It's always someone else's fault. It would be like me going out and driving 50 mph down a 30 mph road simply because I think the speed limit should be changed then getting upset when I get pulled over. Sure, I could go and try to get the speed limit changed, but until then maybe I should slow down or face the consequences.

Also, I would say it's harder to play well when marching then to march well when playing, but maybe that's just me.

would this entire thread have been any different if the op hadnt started by saying he's not a huge cavie fan? I dont think so, people would have still accused him of not being a fan. I dont think we can discount the whole psst because of this though

As far as changing the rules, or whining about them when they dont work, I dont really think anyone is whining. Mainly, we are trying to quantify something that is very hard to quantify. Theres more to it than that, but i dont think this thread is really a bad thing

[truman]

This reminds me of two things:

1) another contra player I used to march with who would say things like, "It's hot," or "We haven't had a water break in a while," or similar things. When we'd tell him to quit #####ing, he'd say, "I'm not #####ing. I'm simply stating the facts."

Usually, when I start a sentence with, "I'm really tired of," it's not something I'm juuuust observing and have no opinion about.

2) the opposite of what I call "The Marocco Syndrome," named after my old roommate in the Marines. "Why do I always get in trouble for the same things other people do?" he would ask. "I don't know," I would reply, "but maybe you should stop doing those things."

Some corps seem to enjoy doing things their way and then #####ing about their lack of success. It's always someone else's fault. It would be like me going out and driving 50 mph down a 30 mph road simply because I think the speed limit should be changed then getting upset when I get pulled over. Sure, I could go and try to get the speed limit changed, but until then maybe I should slow down or face the consequences.

Also, I would say it's harder to play well when marching then to march well when playing, but maybe that's just me.

Ah... if only the debate was as simple as your last statement.

No corps are whining here about their lack of success. I am solely responsible for this thread.

Admitting the premise for my research and discussion is apparantly too truthful for some. I was not aware that I must be critical of every drum corps to in some way to give me the right to question one.

I do have an opinion, never said I didn't. Perhaps I haven't made it clear.

I hope we are past me having to prove that the Cavies play less while moving their feet than the other 3 corps I charted. I think everyone will admit that. How much less IS important, and I feel it is considerable, and EXTREMELY noticable, but you are free to do your own research.

My opinion is that it is harder to march and play at the same time than it is to play a difficult thing standing still, or to march something crazy when not playing.

Consider the judging of the visual caption in Atlanta. The GE Visual judge placed them first in Rep. As he watches the show, does he really care what they are playing while they perform these exciting, fast paced drill manuevers? I doubt it. He wants visual moves that make him go wow. The faster it moves, and the more the wow, the higher the Rep score, I would bet.

Consider the judging of the brass caption. The Brass judge placed them 2nd in Tech caption. As he listened to their brass performance, did he really care if they were moving or not? Probably only if the feet came through the bell. If the brass parts had the demand to place 2nd, then I find it hard to believe he was concerned with feet when determining difficulty.

If the factor of increased demand on both the music and marching is indeed a reality when performing these things simultaneously, then my question would be where is this reflected in the scoring, or, is it even considered? If not, I would imagine that the activity will continue to move in this direction. If you feel the entertainment value of the product goes up when shows are designed this way, then you would be happy. If not, (like me), you will be concerned.

BTW...usmcontra,

Sincere congrats on your career with the Commandant's Own, utmost respect for a great Drum Corps. You should PM me, I believe you may have known my uncle.

[decompressed]

Ah... if only the debate was as simple as your last statement.

Consider the judging of the brass caption. The Brass judge placed them 2nd in Tech caption. As he listened to their brass performance, did he really care if they were moving or not? Probably only if the feet came through the bell. If the brass parts had the demand to place 2nd, then I find it hard to believe he was concerned with feet when determining difficulty.

If the factor of increased demand on both the music and marching is indeed a reality when performing these things simultaneously, then my question would be where is this reflected in the scoring, or, is it even considered? If not, I would imagine that the activity will continue to move in this direction. If you feel the entertainment value of the product goes up when shows are designed this way, then you would be happy. If not, (like me), you will be concerned.

Actually, on the brass sheet, it does mention simultaneous responsibilities which means the judge IS SUPPOSED to evaluate demand while moving. Both physical demands of marching and the written book to boot!

[euponitone]

Actually, on the brass sheet, it does mention simultaneous responsibilities which means the judge IS SUPPOSED to evaluate demand while moving. Both physical demands of marching and the written book to boot!

You are exactly right- and this is what I personally dont see happening

[bradrick]

Truman,

Thank you for the time you've spent on analyzing these shows. I appreciate it. I haven't seen any shows yet this season, but I'll have seen them all twice by this time next week.

There are those who'll get out their sliderules and calculators and attempt to prove you "wrong" on your numbers. But, I know when I watch a drum corps show, I get general impressions of what I think is happening movement-wise, so it'll be interesting to see what your numbers are for the other corps. (Part of drill strategery is making things feel a certain way ... as opposed to what may actually be happening.) Please continue with the other corps... if you want.

Oh... and for anyone who's hanging out on DCP Forums to tell ANYBODY ELSE to "get a life"....

well....

... just :lolhit: ... seriously!

Edited July 16, 2007 by bradrick

[justanopinion]

If the factor of increased demand on both the music and marching is indeed a reality when performing these things simultaneously, then my question would be where is this reflected in the scoring, or, is it even considered?

One possibility is that it IS reflected in the scoring. Perhaps they felt that upon considering EVERYTHING they are supposed to evaluate, that those were the scores that should be given.

Everyone has agreed that this is but one single part of evaluating difficulty. Take it one step further: it is only one part of the many items a judge considers when evaluating in a single caption.

My guess is that it WAS considered, and they gave the scores that they gave.

[VKMello84]

I know that my general and surprising impression in 2002 was that both Cavaliers and Cadets were using a modified park-and-blow approach, and it was actually Blue Devils doing the most in terms of demanding marching and playing at the same time. I certainly never considered taking a stop watch to the thing, but I cannot say that I find these results surprising.

That being said, it gets the scores, and it entertains so what are you going to do? If you are making an argument that the judging in approach is skewed, I think I would entertain that. I always felt that the judging was very skewed and did not adjust well to the arrival of the early 80's Cadets myself.