A Word From the OTHER Competition...

[Tom Brace]

We get it Tom. Doom! Gloom! Chaos! Quarter Pounder with Cheese! <$1 to Lee Rudnicki>

Thank you so much Ryan for promoting Div II/III even though Tom is trying to convince everyone to stay away.

Ah...Kelli once again your misinformation amazes me. NOT ONCE did I advocate people staying away. With the large number of west coast II/III corps, the stands should be filled with moms and dads, grandpas and grandmas, aunts and uncles, children of all ages.

I'm saying to you..and reading is a skill....that vast numbers of people are already not going. They are not interested. You can't make them interested. I have tried and I can't make them interested.

Someone PMd me and said maybe people didn't take me up on my II/III finals offer last year because they would have to sit next to me and that was funny...but II/III is open seating so they could have sat wherever they wanted.

Kelli...I want you to understand this...I was willing to PAY out of my own pocket...up to $200 to get people to join me and my son at II/III finals last year. If I was able to be in California this week, I'd most certainly be at EVERY show offered. I'm that much of a drum corps freak.

So...here's the deal...continue to beat up the messenger if you don't like the message. I can take it. In my own way...I'm trying to wake some of you up from a dream you are having thinking everything in II/III is rosy and beautiful.

[Tom Brace]

Yes, I agree, they're not getting paid as much. But the Div. II directors that I have talked to love what they're doing. The kids couldn't be having more fun. So what exactly is your problem?

After reading so many of your posts, I didn't really see your point. Would you rather have Div. II die? When someone who really wants to be in the activity doesn't get into a Div. 1 corps would you rather they sit at home, away from what they love?

All of the members AND staff love what they are doing. If the directors feel they aren't making enough money, it's their business to complain. Yet for some reason they don't. If they don't have a problem with the money they make, what's yours? Just watch and enjoy the shows, no matter how many people attend.

Maybe they know that complaining is fruitless. They are not DCI member corps so there's really no one to complain to.

Why is everyone going all black and white on this? I am not advocating Div. II disappearing. In fact, I don't need to...it's occurring all by itself. I have already been advocating a dramatic change by getting rid of divisions altogether. I've posted it in this forum previously. Stop thinking in terms of Divisions. It makes these corps seem less than "Div. I" What about one division? Minimum size corps of 30 and maximum size is 150. Have three different touring models. If you choose a regional touring model, you do not get an invite to finals. If you choose a limited touring model, a corps would have to attend a certain number of "regionals" in order to earn an invite to finals. A national touring corps would attend a non-negotiated schedule determined by DCI. These corps would automatically earn an invite to finals.

The corps directors would sign a letter of intent on which touring model they would choose before scheduling would take place but after auditions in November - early January. This could change every year if needed.

I believe this would actually help stem the tide of corps folding. The current model is actually harming corps more than this model would.

Thoughts?

[nemesiscorps]

OK...so who's next?

Anyone want to seriously discuss how to fix the current system?

Does anyone seriously believe this current system benefits Div. II/III corps?

How does II/III draw a bigger audience?

How does II/III make themselves more relevant?

Mr. Brace:

I think you were a bit too hash in your initial post, primarily because it certainly would give a first timer the impression that they shouldn't waste their time and $$ on Div. II/III. I know you value the Div. II/III products, but that didn't come off as strong as your criticism.

Anyway, I'm hearing you, but I'm not clear on your position. Have you offered legitimate ideas on how to fix the problem? I'm sure you have in the past, and I'd be interested in hearing them.

What confuses me is that you stated that it's "not DCI's fault," and likewise, that it is the fault of the Div. II/III corps themselves. Can you break that down a bit more for me? I agree that DCI has always been clear in its mission, "to serve its member corps," of which Div. II/III are not. However, I've always felt that DCI had a responsibility to the entire competitive community. I know others disagree. I'm a relic from the DCM model that actively took care of ALL the competitive units, in as fair and equal a model as possible, recognizing the value that all corps had to the activity and to the kids themselves. Obviously DCM paid the price for this goal and objective of serving the entire corps community at all divisional levels.

How can a Div. II/III organization serve its members well and govern itself to effectively compete against the DCI machine? It certainly can't exist in concert with DCI, the two simply have different goals and objectives. Should Div. II/III give up on their purpose for existing, simply to be a part of DCI? Is that what you're getting at? Help me out here. I recognize and value your experience and opinions. I'd be interested in your assessment. :)

[Tom Brace]

Mr. Brace:

I think you were a bit too hash in your initial post, primarily because it certainly would give a first timer the impression that they shouldn't waste their time and $$ on Div. II/III. I know you value the Div. II/III products, but that didn't come off as strong as your criticism.

Anyway, I'm hearing you, but I'm not clear on your position. Have you offered legitimate ideas on how to fix the problem? I'm sure you have in the past, and I'd be interested in hearing them.

What confuses me is that you stated that it's "not DCI's fault," and likewise, that it is the fault of the Div. II/III corps themselves. Can you break that down a bit more for me? I agree that DCI has always been clear in its mission, "to serve its member corps," of which Div. II/III are not. However, I've always felt that DCI had a responsibility to the entire competitive community. I know others disagree. I'm a relic from the DCM model that actively took care of ALL the competitive units, in as fair and equal a model as possible, recognizing the value that all corps had to the activity and to the kids themselves. Obviously DCM paid the price for this goal and objective of serving the entire corps community at all divisional levels.

How can a Div. II/III organization serve its members well and govern itself to effectively compete against the DCI machine? It certainly can't exist in concert with DCI, the two simply have different goals and objectives. Should Div. II/III give up on their purpose for existing, simply to be a part of DCI? Is that what you're getting at? Help me out here. I recognize and value your experience and opinions. I'd be interested in your assessment. :)

Yeah...I get a little harsh. Believe it or not...it comes from the love of the niche of the activity. DCI is not working behind the scenes to destroy II/III. They don't have to. They just need to NOT serve them as you say. But, I believe II/III is also at fault by nonaction. They don't need to be part of DCI or they can work for a better opportunity within the DCI venue. Someone floated an idea about joining DCA. I am in a camp with folks who are advocating II/IIIs stay with DCI but go to a model that works better for them.

Yeah....the pay disparity is a big thing. Someone made the comment regarding that II/III directors don't complain about how little their corps gets paid for appearances. I think it's context and the type of people who are in charge of II/III corps. I bet over a beer I can get them to complain, but most of these folks are not whiners and complainers.

You are right though...things were a lot better for II/IIIs when DCM was around. The payscale was better for them and there were ample shows for a long time. Then the Div. Is left....which kind of makes my point. When they went...and when the DCI Central was scheduled (coincidentally>????) on the same weekend as DeKalb, the crowds dwindled as well.

I guess that gets me back to the public's perception of the product. The product is outstanding...I enjoy watching II/III. It's gotten better each and every year. On the flip side...we've had fewer and fewer corps each year pretty much as well.

Now DCI does something new again for next year with the membership=150 rule. Again...by serving their member corps, DCI is potentially hurting II/IIIs.

Saying that DCI is responsible for the growth, enrichment, blah blah of the drum corps activity is like saying that Democrats look out for the interests of corporations or that Republicans care for union issues. It sounds nice on paper, but to be practical, all organizations MUST serve their consituents in order to survive.

So, if the members are the consituents of II/III, who are fewer opportunities to perform, making less money for the corps for these perfomances each year compared to inflation, appearing to fewer and fewer fans...how's is this serving.

Here's why I cause so much angst on this newsgroup. Here's the crux of the issue people have with me. I believe you can allow adverse things to happen to you and do nothing about it or you cna go down kicking, screaming, bruising your knuckles, digging your fingernails in, clawing your way to a better place if possible. I don't allow adverse conditions to control me. I look for ways to better my position.

I appreciate what DCM did for the Midest corps...especially the Div. II/IIIs and Seniors.

[stifled4mallettechnique]

I see Tom's points. I'm not sure why so many think he's bashing the div II/III kids. That's not how I read it at all. I do disagree with his assessment that the div II/III corps are not DCI's concern, although I may have misinterpreted it. IMHO, as long as DCI has AUTHORITY over them, they have RESPONSIBILITY to them. It's supposed to be a nonprofit organization, as I understand things. Soooo... is the implication that DCI will fall into financial ruin if they put a little more effort into the corps that make them less money? Does that mean that DCI itself is on the verge of irrelevance? Is that why the member corps keep turning drum corps into something else, in a desperate attempt to find a niche that will pull in more bodies and keep them afloat? I could go on, but it might drift to the edge of the topic, and possibly fall off. I certainly don't mean to imply that the board members want to keep most of the income going to their own corps... I'm sure deep down they want the best for all young performers. I can tell you this though. The Kingsmen Alumni had an exhibition show last night with Impulse, Pioneer, and the Nicholson Pipe Band. Aside from the I&E (and the PB&J) it was the only show going on in the area that I know of. The crowd was great, but there was certainly room for more. I'm sure if any of the top 6 had been there, it would have been standing room only. (I won't go OT and review it. I'm sure Ryan will do a fabulous job of that later, as he always does. I will say that I had a wonderful time. Consider earplugs at semis! ) In a nutshell, I think that many (and I certainly don't mean all) fans will continue to think of the div II/III corps as "Marching Music's MINOR league" as long as DCI thinks of them that way. I can't really offer any practical solutions that haven't been addressed already (I know, I know... so why am I wasting 30 seconds of your life with this?). I don't think the fighting (as opposed to civil disagreement after thoughtful consideration someone's statements) between people with such similar goals is going to help, though.

[Tom Brace]

I see Tom's points. I'm not sure why so many think he's bashing the div II/III kids. That's not how I read it at all. I do disagree with his assessment that the div II/III corps are not DCI's concern, although I may have misinterpreted it. IMHO, as long as DCI has AUTHORITY over them, they have RESPONSIBILITY to them. It's supposed to be a nonprofit organization, as I understand things. Soooo... is the implication that DCI will fall into financial ruin if they put a little more effort into the corps that make them less money? Does that mean that DCI itself is on the verge of irrelevance? Is that why the member corps keep turning drum corps into something else, in a desperate attempt to find a niche that will pull in more bodies and keep them afloat? I could go on, but it might drift to the edge of the topic, and possibly fall off. I certainly don't mean to imply that the board members want to keep most of the income going to their own corps... I'm sure deep down they want the best for all young performers. I can tell you this though. The Kingsmen Alumni had an exhibition show last night with Impulse, Pioneer, and the Nicholson Pipe Band. Aside from the I&E (and the PB&J) it was the only show going on in the area that I know of. The crowd was great, but there was certainly room for more. I'm sure if any of the top 6 had been there, it would have been standing room only. (I won't go OT and review it. I'm sure Ryan will do a fabulous job of that later, as he always does. I will say that I had a wonderful time. Consider earplugs at semis! ) In a nutshell, I think that many (and I certainly don't mean all) fans will continue to think of the div II/III corps as "Marching Music's MINOR league" as long as DCI thinks of them that way. I can't really offer any practical solutions that haven't been addressed already (I know, I know... so why am I wasting 30 seconds of your life with this?). I don't think the fighting (as opposed to civil disagreement after thoughtful consideration someone's statements) between people with such similar goals is going to help, though.

Thank you for your thoughts. We agree on much. What I mean of course is that DCI is out to serve the member corps of DCI first. Even though the charter says one thing or another and a mission statement might say one thing or another...the final business plan can INTERPRET and then APPLY that mission plan in a myriad of ways.

Is DCI doing everything it could to support II/III? No.

Are any of the member corps calling DCI to task for this? Again, no.

Are too many people complacent about the current format for DCI? Yes.

I guess with all the wrangling on here we have accomplished this much. Almost 2500 people have read this topic and 7 pages of discussions have taken place as of this writing. That's almost as many people who attending II/III finals last year and way more discussion that would have taken place in the II/III forum.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts...really...I do appreciate the passion in the responses...we just need to work with passion to better the opportunities for the II/III corps.

[Ryan H. Turner]

Just to add a little fuel to the broil going on here...I spoke last night for several minutes with a hereunto unidentified but VERY VERY VERY well known name in the drum corps business. His exact words, after we exchanged our enthusiastic assessment of the Preliminaries at PCC, was..."I really like Division II/III. I support it. Not that DCI does." To say he was bitter about that would be fair. This guy can see the writing on the wall that apparently is there.

Back to my enthusiasm--REGARDLESS of the argument that Tom is bringing up, REGARDLESS if we "like" or "loathe" what he has to say, and REGARDLESS if you think Division II/III is or is not "where it's at"...I'm staking my professional opinion on this by saying the QUALITY and QUANTITY of the drum corps experience being displayed by these talented kids is EXCITING, FUN, INSPIRING, and absolutely positively AWESOME!!! This is not like going to a little league game and struggling through 9 innings of hitless slow paced beginner level play. This is not like going to a violin recital of a 9 yr old that just learned "Hot Cross Buns" via the Suzuki Method and wondering if there is a greater hell to experience.

This is DRUM CORPS FOLKS!! And if my ranting and raving about how awesome it is will help spread the word, light a fire of curiosity, and get people to come down to experience this AND--MOST IMPORTANTLY--give BACK to these kids what WE all got to experience in our drum corps career and that's a STAND FULL OF FANS LOVING THEM...

...THEN THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!!! That's why I'm here. I didn't even think for a second when I was asked to be the announcer for this that I was going to have this type of reaction to what I saw. But it was difficult for me to superimpose the awesomeness (if that's a word) of what I was seeing on the field with the 200 people that DID commit to coming down and being a FANTASTIC audience. I bet each of those 200 people know 5 people and could get them to come down. Again--it's NOT ABOUT ANY MONEY!! I could care less about that.

I care about those kids. And I know in the three years with VK I had back in the 80's, I KNOW--deep in my heart--what it's like to have NOTHING but WILD APPLAUSE for the efforts on the field. And to me--I don't know--call me a sap. Whatever. But I think of those kids on Tuesday absolutely GIVING IT UP out there...I just want the payback for them to be thunderous. I want them to know they're WORTH it. I want them to feel what I felt--because it's INDESCRIBABLE. It's what I attempt to teach the multitudes of bands I've been involved with over the years. That people are paying MONEY to come see you--you don't get that doing algebra in high school, do you?!?!? LOL!!! I want them to look up in the stands and see that people actually are there TO SEE THEM and are ready to give it up FOR THEM. See what I'm saying???

--sigh--

I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. Just come down, bring some friends, and I promise you, you'll entertained just as you're SUPPOSED to be at a drum corps show.

I'm out.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Ryan H. Turner

[Tom Brace]

Just to add a little fuel to the broil going on here...I spoke last night for several minutes with a hereunto unidentified but VERY VERY VERY well known name in the drum corps business. His exact words, after we exchanged our enthusiastic assessment of the Preliminaries at PCC, was..."I really like Division II/III. I support it. Not that DCI does." To say he was bitter about that would be fair. This guy can see the writing on the wall that apparently is there.

Back to my enthusiasm--REGARDLESS of the argument that Tom is bringing up, REGARDLESS if we "like" or "loathe" what he has to say, and REGARDLESS if you think Division II/III is or is not "where it's at"...I'm staking my professional opinion on this by saying the QUALITY and QUANTITY of the drum corps experience being displayed by these talented kids is EXCITING, FUN, INSPIRING, and absolutely positively AWESOME!!! This is not like going to a little league game and struggling through 9 innings of hitless slow paced beginner level play. This is not like going to a violin recital of a 9 yr old that just learned "Hot Cross Buns" via the Suzuki Method and wondering if there is a greater hell to experience.

This is DRUM CORPS FOLKS!! And if my ranting and raving about how awesome it is will help spread the word, light a fire of curiosity, and get people to come down to experience this AND--MOST IMPORTANTLY--give BACK to these kids what WE all got to experience in our drum corps career and that's a STAND FULL OF FANS LOVING THEM...

...THEN THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!!! That's why I'm here. I didn't even think for a second when I was asked to be the announcer for this that I was going to have this type of reaction to what I saw. But it was difficult for me to superimpose the awesomeness (if that's a word) of what I was seeing on the field with the 200 people that DID commit to coming down and being a FANTASTIC audience. I bet each of those 200 people know 5 people and could get them to come down. Again--it's NOT ABOUT ANY MONEY!! I could care less about that.

I care about those kids. And I know in the three years with VK I had back in the 80's, I KNOW--deep in my heart--what it's like to have NOTHING but WILD APPLAUSE for the efforts on the field. And to me--I don't know--call me a sap. Whatever. But I think of those kids on Tuesday absolutely GIVING IT UP out there...I just want the payback for them to be thunderous. I want them to know they're WORTH it. I want them to feel what I felt--because it's INDESCRIBABLE. It's what I attempt to teach the multitudes of bands I've been involved with over the years.

--sigh--

I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. Just come down, bring some friends, and I promise you, you'll entertained just as you're SUPPOSED to be at a drum corps show.

I'm out.

What he said.

Wish I could be there today and Saturday.

[Walter]

The current system is not broke if you are a Div. I corps. It's broken for II/III and these remaining corps have been part of the problem.

...and what PROBLEM are you refering too ??

[PCSoprano9702]

Div II/III is where the drum corps people say doesn't exist anymore still exists.

Small groups pouring their hearts out. Chips on their shoulders.

Local corps, community corps, and yes, training corps. You may not be fresh of the street, but you don't need to know everything at auditions, they'll teach you.

Also, the top slots are rarely a foregone conclusion. So the competition is in the practice and execution, not in the design.

I never understood paying $30 to stand in a parking lot then shuffle in for SCV and BD.