A Word From the OTHER Competition...

[Tom Brace]

Read this guys past posts on Div 2/3. he seems to have some stick up his butt about anything not on the exaulted heigts of Div 1 and spares no opportunity to tear down on the smaller guys. If he was ever involved with div 2/3 he learned nothing of value.

You are so wrong.

Did you read my review of II/III finals from last year?

I was one of 2800 in attendance. Were you?

Your comments are unfair.

Don't try to run from the truth just because you don't like it.

And again...ask your local corps director what they got paid for their last II/III appearance.

If you don't like gloom and doom...why aren't there 20,000 paid going to see II/III finals? I;m sure DCI wouldn't mind it if there were.

If 20,000 people were standing in line Saturday morning at the gates of Pasadena Community College waiting to see the finals then I will gladly shut up and fly to the homes of each of the II/III finalists...not corps homes but member homes and personally apologize for being so wrong.

II/III is here for the members. I get it...I've always got it. It's just not the natural leap to Div. I that it used to be. Other than the Cadet corps (SCVC, BDB, Colt Cadets) there is little incentive for the II/III corps to lose a quality member to Div. I. They need all the kids they can get.

Look at what happened to OC this year after their staff jettisoned and went to Cascades. Wow....this guy just knows Div. I...he doesn't know anything about Div. II/III. See how wrong you are? OC is back...thank God...but down a division due to an exodus of members.

Now...instead of kaviching about me...why don't you join a constructive session on changing the DCI model to better accomodate the II/III corps.

What if there were no II/III or Div. I for that matter? What if there were just three touring models...regional only, limited tour and national tour? What if the size of the corps didn't matter so much. All corps had a minimum of 30 members and a maximum of 150?

See...I'm discussiong these ideas with other people to attempt to change the paradigm because the current model is broken and the ones who continually get tossed off the cliff are the II/IIIs.

Ryan's post just dug at me a bit. I was in Madison last year for II/III finals and I know firsthand how fruitless it is to try to get Div. I people to a II/III only show.

I offered every fan around me last year after Semis and the Madison Alumni Project to go to II/III finals with my son and I. I said I'd pay for up to 25 people to go with us. (A DCI person was going to get me a group rate of $8 a person if I could get 25 or more). Four people told me they already had tickets and another 50+ told me they were sleeping in...most were going to the bar next to the stadium where the Madison guys were going.

So...don't libel me please. I've been around the block enough to know what I am talking about. The current system is broken and if people keep ignoring that problem...well...it's your II/III corps that will be most affected by the changes.

[Tom Brace]

That's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about your statements that said that no serious drum corps fan would want to go to a Div. II/III show.

I personally know several, and I'm sure there is a good portion of this forum that enjoys going to Div II/III shows.

But I never said that.

I said Div. I corps fans do not generally attend the II/III shows.

Last year in Madison....2800 (rough estimate) attended II/III finals. 4,100 for three shows (prelims/semis/finals).

18,000 plus for Div. I finals. I believe it was over 40,000 for the three Div. I shows.

It has nothing to do with serious. The serious fans go to both...as I did in Madison last year.

[Tom Brace]

OK...so who's next?

Anyone want to seriously discuss how to fix the current system?

Does anyone seriously believe this current system benefits Div. II/III corps?

How does II/III draw a bigger audience?

How does II/III make themselves more relevant?

[rosski47]

Going to the new topic,

What do you think the results would be if DCI were to give a Div. II/III finals ticket to everyone who bought the Super 3 package, would that boost attendance at all?

[Mistress Kelli]

I couldn't agree more.

What is it when an audience doesn't want to attend and you only have a 1 in 4 chance of marching in "Music's Major League" if you march in a II/III corps.

I call it irrelevance.

Watch Jersey Surf and Spartans after this year. I won't be surprised.

It is not merely a 1 in 4 chance of marching Div I - you don't even take into consideration CHOICE! There are kids that choose to stay in the smaller corps that they feel loyalty towards. Where does that fit into your statistics?

Irrelevance my ###! If it weren't for the Div II/III corps, there would only be 2 maybe 3 Div I corps at the California shows. Do you think the local people will pay $20 to $50 to watch 3 corps (less than an hour of entertainment)? I doubt it because most of those fans are the parents of the kids in the B corps. Not to mention the fact that at the early season shows, most corps have an incomplete product.

You want to talk flaws in the system? Fine. But don't do it on the shoulders of the Div II/III kids that sweat, bleed and work just as hard as the Div I kids and ARE relevant to the activity because they do produce an entertaining product.

[mello_laurel]

I couldn't agree more.

What is it when an audience doesn't want to attend and you only have a 1 in 4 chance of marching in "Music's Major League" if you march in a II/III corps.

I call it irrelevance.

Watch Jersey Surf and Spartans after this year. I won't be surprised.

I've come to take what Tom Brace says with a grain of salt, but I currently have nothing better to do than argue...

I don't know if I'd agree with the "1 in 4" whatever. You cannot implicate that number from that survey, as that says nothing about the number of people from D2/3 who actually go to the auditions for D1. Those two have nothing to do with one another. Your chance is increased greatly by marching 2/3, but not everyone decides to go audition for D1. In addition to the fact that the size of the two samples are completely different, therefore changing the percentage.

I also don't think that it affects anyone marching that there is "no audience to attend," as the grand majority of the audience that is there is genuinely interested in seeing what you put on the field. Honestly, I would have much rather performed in front of that audience than one for a show where we were performing with D1, as half of the people in the stands there were not actually there to see what we put on the field, as at those shows you encounter significantly more attendees who are not real "drum corps fans," but rather people who are attending with their high school/to see their cousin who marches D1/etc.

Whatever. I loved marching D2, and it never greatly bothered me that the audience wasn't huge, because the people who were there were entertained by what we were putting on the field.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents, so I'm going to go back to my depression because I can't be in Pasadena this week :(

(I have to take all of my time off for band camp this year, as both of the bands I teach have camp the same week...)

[drewbugler]

20% of Div. II/III ever march in Div. I. Translate this. 80% of all Div. I participants NEVER march in a Div. II/III corps before auditioning for a Div. I corps. Now...explain to me...if the audience doesn't attend...and you only have a one in four chance of making a Div. I corps by marching in Div. II/III....where's the relevance?

OK...time for you to rant at me for being evil and lazy and not telling the truth.

Waiting.

Well, in my time with the DCI (which included two seasons in div II/III and three in div I, along with 1 year of Div I staff) I marched with people from the following corps:

Carolina Crown (when they were div II)

Golden Lancers

Lake Erie Regiment

Spirit of Newark

Illusion

Southwind

Teal Sound

Spirit of Atlanta

East Coast Jazz

Jersey Surf

Spartans

Pacific Crest

Patriots

St. John's

Delta Brigade

Conqueror II

Academie Musicale

Les Etioles

Lone Star

Phantom Regiment Cadets/Legion

Americanos

Magic of Orlando

Boston Crusaders

Phantom Regiment

General Butler Vagabonds

Kiwanis Kavaliers

Tampa Bay Thunder

Oakland Crusaders

I mean, I could probably think of a few more if you wanted....but for you to actually say 80% of Div I participants do not march Div II/III, I just feel like that number doesn't feel fair.

At least with my experience. Where did you get that figure? I'm just curious.

Edited August 8, 2007 by drewbugler

[ImpulseDrew]

You couldn't be more wrong my friend. And I did see Impulse once this season in Glendale. I don't miss corps on purpose because for me what happens in a parking lot has little bearing on my enjoyment of drum corps.

I speak from many years of experience rooted in regional circuits where there were opportunities for small corps and big corps alike to make a "reasonable" sum to offset touring expenses in order to survive.

Please don't attempt to lecure me on what is and what is not involved in II/III because I've been there. Looks like Spartans may just have a job knocking off Surf this year instead of what my favorite corps might be. I liked Memphis Sound last year at finals as well as Impulse who won Div. III. What were your thoughts on their performances from last year. Afterall, if you were in Madison last year weren't you?

So...this thread begins in the Div. I forum advertising a Div. II/III corps show. I have spoken back and forth with Ryan Turner hundreds of times on DCP and RAMD before that. He is VERY passionate about Div. II/III and Impulse.

What I'm saying is that this thing...it's really hard to describe other than DCIs equivilent to AYSO soccer...is not attended by a vast majority of the PAYING AUDIENCE. I did not make this fact up. It's a fact. So if getting mad at me is going to fix this and make it all better...come on...heap it on me...I can take it...I have big shoulders.

If we are going to logically debate the relevance of Div. II/III on the current future of DCI...you lose already. Because no one currently in Div. II/III has an answer of how to fix the fact that too few people come and see these corps perform.

And here's one more message you're not going to like. It's my assessment that DCI does not care either. Otherwise II/III international prelims/semis/finals would be in Indianapolis. Have a nice time in Michigan City.

20% of Div. II/III ever march in Div. I. Translate this. 80% of all Div. I participants NEVER march in a Div. II/III corps before auditioning for a Div. I corps. Now...explain to me...if the audience doesn't attend...and you only have a one in four chance of making a Div. I corps by marching in Div. II/III....where's the relevance?

OK...time for you to rant at me for being evil and lazy and not telling the truth.

Waiting.

Madison II/III was an amazing show. Hands down great, but not as great as 2005. Even though we were sitting sixth, it was close from third through last in II. Plus all of the flip-flopping going on. I have always had a place in my heart for Revo. Watching them fight back from not fielding in 04 to where they are now has been inspiring. Plus, in 05 we were best buds, and everytime we'd see them in the lots, we'd cheer them on. I even remember our entire corps running from our busses to the stadium at finals to cheer them on as they performed. Of course they returned the favor when we went on later. I really hope to see them back to Div. II status soon. OC had an off year last year, with all the staff swapping going on in the northwest, it was hard to keep track. Most of OC's staff ended up at Scades, and vice versa. They were not as big as they were in 05, but they were still larger than they currently are. Academy came out firing and never looked back, leaving everyone else in Div.II playing catch-up from the get go. ECJ wouldn't have caught them, even with a slightly stronger guard (IMO their weakpoint(eventhough they were almost bulletproof)). I did like Memphis too, but they weren't clean enough to play ball like they are this year. Impulse took a while to grow on me. I remember seeing the show at the camps and early shows and not liking it, but then a little before they left for finals, it came across a lot better.

As far as you comparing II/III to AYSO, it's like calling Drum Corps, Marching Band. You just don't do it, no matter what your personal feelings are, it's rude.

As far as not having a solution for II/III the problem is this, DCI is governed by the member corps.....All Div 1. Of course they don't care, they're too busy giving themselves money to do shows to care about what's needed anywhere else.

Relevance? you want relevance? Do you need a reason to go to any other show? Or do you drag all your friends out to show them what they're missing. I'm dragging.

[SpookyKid]

OK...so who's next?

Anyone want to seriously discuss how to fix the current system?

Does anyone seriously believe this current system benefits Div. II/III corps?

How does II/III draw a bigger audience?

How does II/III make themselves more relevant?

1) Package II/III Prelims and Finals as a part of the ticketing package.

2) Combine Division II and III into one single division.

3) Put Division II/III Finals on PBS.

4) Continue to encourage the development of new corps.

5) Give Division II/III a bigger presence on the DCI telecast.

6) DCI needs to do a more aggressive job in the promotion of Division II/III.

[friceox]

I personally feel that the 20% stat is skewed. What about all the div II/III kids that decide to stay in div II/III? What about the kid who only gets to march 1 year, say their age out,and it happens to be with a div II/III? It's just another option for kids to march. Some kids may join div II/III to try things out and see if they ever really want to move up to Div I. There's a whole ton of respect needed for the kids of div II/III, think about the the lack of practice they get some day on tour? Going on first at a joint division show, that means the corps needs to stop rehearsing not too long after lunch, they're warming up in the parking lot before some of the "big dogs" have even hit the showers or done their run thru. I started in the div II/III circuit mainly because I wasn't ready talent wise for a div I corps AND the closest div I corps to me was 8 hours away, and as a 15 year old kid, I couldn't really get to those camps.

My rookie year, we marched a regional at 7:30am with the only people in the crowd being the food staff from our corps, it didn't stop the corps from performing one bit. We were on a mission that summer to get better and have fun, the same as Div 1 corps.

I'm all for Div II/III.