Richard Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Maybe DCI should get an applause-o-meter to determine finals placement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfpstudios Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 Maybe DCI should get an applause-o-meter to determine finals placement That might be more accurate than the opinion of a handful of people (judges). :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 As to your "...first and foremost provide the best experience for the members. The judges come next followed by the audience." comment.I think you are in error about the order. Without the audience drum corps will cease to exist. The fans provide the resources (money); they are the most important customer. Next by providing a proper challenge and resources(including talented managers, music composers, etc. ) for the performers you give them the opportunity or allow them to achieve excellence: this is also good for the fans as well as the performers. I am saying how it has been done as long as I've been around drum corps, and also how I believe it should be done. I disagree on the "audience comes first thing", as there is no way to determine WHAT the audience is, and each corps has it's own ideas of how it wants to create a program. The 'audience' for a particular corps comes from those who enjoy the shows that corps creates. It's not necessarily true that the most appreciative audience for, say, the Blue Coats will be the same as those who most favor the Blue Knights. it also goes back to "members first". Using the above two corps, they each attract members to their camps based on the totality of the corps, including the type of shows they create. A "real world" example....we had a visual tech with the NJ band I teach in the late 90's who marched contra in the Blue Devils. He flew over every other corps in the country to march BD, as that was the corps that fit his own likes and personality best. He said he would NEVER have been able to march Cadets, as he just did not care for their approach to drum corps back then, both shows and 'environment'. The judges are an adjunct which provides a service, a third party only there to give the activity perspective. The quality of the corps is already present by the time the show starts. The judges will not change that. On the other hand, we cannot expect to please two masters in this regard, i.e. the biblical notion of "...for either we will love one and hate the other..." applies here as well. Most corps always have, and AFAK always will, do "things" to improve their scores and please the judges, to varying degrees of course. It is a competitive activity; to NOT do so is corps-suicide, IMO. To perform to the judges only is to turn the corps into a point machine designed to influence a very limited number of singular humans according to some pattern. This leaves out the fans, parents, friends, enthusiasts, and all the others who make drum corps possible. Never forget that without the funding our corps will stay put in their home cities. The audience is the one who makes the activity mobile and possible. If we tick them off we all lose. I never said to perform for "the judges only". I would never suggest such a thing. In fact, when it comes to the performance, as opposed to the show design and rehearsal time, the judges do come third, behind the corps itself and then the audience, to my way of thinking. That is what I always tell our band at a performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfpstudios Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 I am saying how it has been done as long as I've been around drum corps, and also how I believe it should be done. I disagree on the "audience comes first thing", as there is no way to determine WHAT the audience is, and each corps has it's own ideas of how it wants to create a program. The 'audience' for a particular corps comes from those who enjoy the shows that corps creates. It's not necessarily true that the most appreciative audience for, say, the Blue Coats will be the same as those who most favor the Blue Knights.it also goes back to "members first". Using the above two corps, they each attract members to their camps based on the totality of the corps, including the type of shows they create. A "real world" example....we had a visual tech with the NJ band I teach in the late 90's who marched contra in the Blue Devils. He flew over every other corps in the country to march BD, as that was the corps that fit his own likes and personality best. He said he would NEVER have been able to march Cadets, as he just did not care for their approach to drum corps back then, both shows and 'environment'. Most corps always have, and AFAK always will, do "things" to improve their scores and please the judges, to varying degrees of course. It is a competitive activity; to NOT do so is corps-suicide, IMO. I never said to perform for "the judges only". I would never suggest such a thing. In fact, when it comes to the performance, as opposed to the show design and rehearsal time, the judges do come third, behind the corps itself and then the audience, to my way of thinking. That is what I always tell our band at a performance. “Corps” follow a set pattern and attempt to make no errors. “Pleasing” the judges, like a tyranny of the minority that they are in the present system, is left up to the designers of the show. Improving scores is a matter of making no errors. For any given show the points are tallied based on the errors or lack of them. Other factors are built in and beyond the control of the “Corps” a.k.a. the performers. An example of this would be the dissonic announcements done by the Cadets: a very nice show but crippled by the speaker system; no matter how good the performers were they were handicapped by the poor use of the speaker technology. Furthermore, one needs to be in denial to not admit that the audience is a customer in the classic sense. The customer must be considered first in any business or the business will fail. The performers are the equivalent of employees who are providing a service (entertainment). The fact that they are all learning, growing, and gaining from the experience does not change this fact. Taking the analogy further, the judges are like environmental regulators: it does not matter whether you think they have valid ideas (i.e., global warming, cooling, etc.) but what matters is they have the law on their side. You ignore the law at your own peril, i.e., suffer the consequences. So it is with a corps. If the show ignores the judges preferences then the consequences are the point system. The Corps (employees) are paid in points. If the arbitrary opinion of a judge is good then they obtain points; if not then they do not obtain as many points, etc. In summary, the audience (customers) pay and then come to obtain an entertainment service provided by the corps (employees). The whole system is under the eye of the judges (regulators) who interfere with the free system as would otherwise be determined by the audience. Who is the most "important"?: all equally I suppose since they make up the system as we know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 “Corps” follow a set pattern and attempt to make no errors. “Pleasing” the judges, like a tyranny of the minority that they are in the present system, is left up to the designers of the show. Improving scores is a matter of making no errors. For any given show the points are tallied based on the errors or lack of them. Other factors are built in and beyond the control of the “Corps” a.k.a. the performers. An example of this would be the dissonic announcements done by the Cadets: a very nice show but crippled by the speaker system; no matter how good the performers were they were handicapped by the poor use of the speaker technology. No, improving scores is NOT merely a matter of making fewer 'errors'. Even in the old tick era there were the effect and analysis captions to consider. Today, improvements are based on all sorts of things. That is a highly restrictive look at what makes up a score. As for the Cadets, their show was just fine with the narration and speakers. Furthermore, one needs to be in denial to not admit that the audience is a customer in the classic sense. The customer must be considered first in any business or the business will fail. The performers are the equivalent of employees who are providing a service (entertainment). The fact that they are all learning, growing, and gaining from the experience does not change this fact. No, sorry, this is not the case in DCI, or just about any artistic endeavor. Yes, there is a lot of pablum out there in the entertainment world, and lots of moveis ending in II, III, or IV, just to please "the crowds". But there are all sorts of genre films, both large and small, that target this or that bit of the overall audience. And I never said the designers shuold IGNORE the audience, just that they come in third in creating a show...second in the performance area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedEye Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Furthermore, one needs to be in denial to not admit that the audience is a customer in the classic sense. The customer must be considered first in any business or the business will fail. The performers are the equivalent of employees who are providing a service (entertainment). The fact that they are all learning, growing, and gaining from the experience does not change this fact. In summary, the audience (customers) pay and then come to obtain an entertainment service provided by the corps (employees). The whole system is under the eye of the judges (regulators) who interfere with the free system as would otherwise be determined by the audience. Who is the most "important"?: all equally I suppose since they make up the system as we know it. This is completely off base. The corps members are not employees, working for a company whose goal is to provide entertainment to an audiene. They are paying participants in a non-profit educational organization, which they choose to audition for and be part of to further their own skills and life experiences. The byproduct IS an entertainment experience that is shared with a lucky audience who pay admission fees to see it, that in turn go BACK to the corps and the governing organization to further the educational experience. We are all lucky as audience members to get to enjoy the wonder of what the kids produce, and shows factor in entertainment value, but they do not exist to entertain as their number one priority. They exist to challenge and educate. So, "in summary," DCI is not NBC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein On The Beach Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Maybe DCI should get an applause-o-meter to determine finals placement That might be more accurate than the opinion of a handful of people (judges). :) Cute Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 “Corps” follow a set pattern and attempt to make no errors. “Pleasing” the judges, like a tyranny of the minority that they are in the present system, is left up to the designers of the show. Improving scores is a matter of making no errors. For any given show the points are tallied based on the errors or lack of them. Other factors are built in and beyond the control of the “Corps” a.k.a. the performers. An example of this would be the dissonic announcements done by the Cadets: a very nice show but crippled by the speaker system; no matter how good the performers were they were handicapped by the poor use of the speaker technology.Furthermore, one needs to be in denial to not admit that the audience is a customer in the classic sense. The customer must be considered first in any business or the business will fail. The performers are the equivalent of employees who are providing a service (entertainment). The fact that they are all learning, growing, and gaining from the experience does not change this fact. Taking the analogy further, the judges are like environmental regulators: it does not matter whether you think they have valid ideas (i.e., global warming, cooling, etc.) but what matters is they have the law on their side. You ignore the law at your own peril, i.e., suffer the consequences. So it is with a corps. If the show ignores the judges preferences then the consequences are the point system. The Corps (employees) are paid in points. If the arbitrary opinion of a judge is good then they obtain points; if not then they do not obtain as many points, etc. In summary, the audience (customers) pay and then come to obtain an entertainment service provided by the corps (employees). The whole system is under the eye of the judges (regulators) who interfere with the free system as would otherwise be determined by the audience. Who is the most "important"?: all equally I suppose since they make up the system as we know it. After all this blah blah blah blah...I ask one simple question. Is DCA any different? Members need to connect to the program to be able to "emote" (I hate that word) it. The judges evaluate productions in DCA as well. The audience would certainly be another consideration. A lot of folks in DCA have a DCI background. So...is this essentially how DCA is as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 (edited) This is completely off base. The corps members are not employees, working for a company whose goal is to provide entertainment to an audiene. They are paying participants in a non-profit educational organization, which they choose to audition for and be part of to further their own skills and life experiences. The byproduct IS an entertainment experience that is shared with a lucky audience who pay admission fees to see it, that in turn go BACK to the corps and the governing organization to further the educational experience. We are all lucky as audience members to get to enjoy the wonder of what the kids produce, and shows factor in entertainment value, but they do not exist to entertain as their number one priority. They exist to challenge and educate. So, "in summary," DCI is not NBC. WINNER. GFP, you lose the drum corps game. Edited September 5, 2007 by DrillmanSop06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein On The Beach Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 After all this blah blah blah blah...I ask one simple question.Is DCA any different? Members need to connect to the program to be able to "emote" (I hate that word) it. The judges evaluate productions in DCA as well. The audience would certainly be another consideration. A lot of folks in DCA have a DCI background. So...is this essentially how DCA is as well? No, DCI is evil, DCA is a gift from the gods. Everything they do and say is right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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