Oldguardhag Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Well, I guess if you define success as placement. . me, not so much. formula shows to me are booooooooooring and do nothing to expand the activity, it should not be acceptable from world class group, but more importantly their staffs. With the talent that all of these groups have, stepping outside of the box should not be hard for them. Flanagan, Logan, Shen...all their shows have blended together for me. While I enjoyed them, by the 4th year of seeing the same thing, I'm ready to see something new.... You know, the same could even be said of State Street once upon a time. Salsa, Atlantis, The Four Seasons... I think what you're seeing as a formula is simply a design team that has stayed with the same guard more than a year or two. I think if you go back to the years of Choctaw (same designer as Shen has now, btw) you'll see the consistency there, too. I believe the reason there are such vast differences in the ones you've mentioned are because of their frequent designer changes. I suspect being that they've only been in the HSW for a year, Shen feels they need to establish themselves with that which has worked; before they go completely out on a limb and try something a bit more out there. I also know that most guards choose shows which fit their students (performers). The style most likely reflects their training, and what the design staff feels their performers can successfully handle. It's different in scholastic, where principals (and parents) will hold a design staff accountable for their children's ability to succeed, then say, an independent guard where a designer can do what they choose and the only one the performer has to blame is themselves for choosing to participate in the designer's program. Finally, perhaps someone should actually see the guard in question before they make sweeping generalizations based on what one person wrote that they "heard"..... Just my opinion..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrfctTimeOfDay Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) Finally, perhaps someone should actually see the guard in question before they make sweeping generalizations based on what one person wrote that they "heard".....Just my opinion..... There’s no sweeping generalizations, go back and watch shens last couple of shows . . .they are stuck in a formula. If they come out with something innovative that doesn't resemble what they did last year, I'll apologize. If they don't, expect a scathing criticism of their show directed at their creative staff. It's just unacceptable to me. Parents, school boards, guard members music preferences, or what ever may be the variables...a good and creative staff knows how to deal with all of those issues and still be competitive, innovative and make the experience rewarding. Doing the same thing over and over is not rewarding in my eyes. Edited January 24, 2008 by PrfctTimeOfDay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancedance Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Shen, Logan, Flanagan... Love you all and sorry to see your names getting dragged down. Sour grapes. Re: Shen. From what I know, it's a show completely unlike last year - bluesey and up a notch. The only thing familiar to Shen's shows in my opinion is that they stick to using velvet tarps... some sort of recognizable theme for them, like it or not. ( I do) Also, their shows are usually very "pretty." For me, it's a welcome change from the aggressive "yelling" shows that are often associated with the World Class. I suppose that's why I also enjoyed Trumbull so much the past two years. Just because they stick to certain "style," and do it well, is no reason to criticize or give an unsolicited "scathing criticism." So far all the groups you guys are discussing are groups that have distinctly defined, interesting themes each year. There’s no sweeping generalizations, go back and watch shens last couple of shows . . .they are stuck in a formula. If they come out with something innovative that doesn't resemble what they did last year, I'll apologize. If they don't, expect a scathing criticism of their show directed at their creative staff. It's just unacceptable to me. Parents, school boards, guard members music preferences, or what ever may be the variables...a good and creative staff knows how to deal with all of those issues and still be competitive, innovative and make the experience rewarding. Doing the same thing over and over is not rewarding in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn shoppe heart Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Well, I guess if you define success as placement. . me, not so much. formula shows to me are booooooooooring and do nothing to expand the activity, it should not be acceptable from world class group, but more importantly their staffs. With the talent that all of these groups have, stepping outside of the box should not be hard for them. Flanagan, Logan, Shen...all their shows have blended together for me. While I enjoyed them, by the 4th year of seeing the same thing, I'm ready to see something new.... The group that really is starting to re-invent themselves year in and year out is: Avon. they blew everyone away with their innovation last year, people need to step up and follow their lead. I can go into major details about the first comment, but I'm going to try to keep this short and sweet. Whether anyone is willing to admit it or not, I can confidently say that placing well is usually one of many objectives that a color guard has - especially that of a WGI Scholastic World Finalist. Now, placement is usually a reflection of success in equipment skill, performance skill and/or show design (not including "politics"), right? Anywhooo, placement is nothing compared to an audience's feedback. I'm sure another main objective of a Scholastic World Finalist is to give their audience what they want -- and what their audiences want is one heck of a show. Call Logan, Flanagan or whomever else you want "booooooooooring", but I don't think boring shows get full standing ovations at WGI. I love Avon as much as the next person does, but I don't really see how they have expanded our activity. Quite frankly, I haven't seen ANY guard's this year that have done something really innovative, but that's just my opinion. Now, I'm not going to call anyone boring because I know breaking major barriers and innovation is hard to accomplish, and it only comes once every few years.... Not just in color guard but in everything! Medicine, sports, television, music, art, etc., etc.! If you want change in something, then get your butt out there and make it happen... If not, at least play nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugg Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) For me, it's a welcome change from the aggressive "yelling" shows that are often associated with the World Class. yuck!we've all heard it.performers grunting,snorting and yelling over the soundtrack is horrible,when will we move past this unpleasant and often unintentionally comic trend? soon i hope! Edited January 24, 2008 by dugg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrfctTimeOfDay Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) Shen, Logan, Flanagan... Love you all and sorry to see your names getting dragged down. Sour grapes.Re: Shen. From what I know, it's a show completely unlike last year - bluesey and up a notch. The only thing familiar to Shen's shows in my opinion is that they stick to using velvet tarps... some sort of recognizable theme for them, like it or not. ( I do) Also, their shows are usually very "pretty." For me, it's a welcome change from the aggressive "yelling" shows that are often associated with the World Class. I suppose that's why I also enjoyed Trumbull so much the past two years. Just because they stick to certain "style," and do it well, is no reason to criticize or give an unsolicited "scathing criticism." So far all the groups you guys are discussing are groups that have distinctly defined, interesting themes each year. Let's just kill 2 birds with one stone here. We are definitely going to have to just agree to disagree. As for the sour grapes comment, there's nothing sour about what I've said. I did come on here and say they didn't deserve their accomplishments or that they suck or demean their programs, what I did say is that their formula shows are getting tiresome and it's time for their staffs to step it up and be creative and innovative. Having a certain style doesn't mean rolling out the same show with a slight change in music and color. . .and thus deserves any criticism that comes their way. Make sure you pass up my reviews throughout the season if the truth hurts. I can go into major details about the first comment, but I'm going to try to keep this short and sweet. Whether anyone is willing to admit it or not, I can confidently say that placing well is usually one of many objectives that a color guard has - especially that of a WGI Scholastic World Finalist. Now, placement is usually a reflection of success in equipment skill, performance skill and/or show design (not including "politics"), right? Anywhooo, placement is nothing compared to an audience's feedback. I'm sure another main objective of a Scholastic World Finalist is to give their audience what they want -- and what their audiences want is one heck of a show. Call Logan, Flanagan or whomever else you want "booooooooooring", but I don't think boring shows get full standing ovations at WGI. I love Avon as much as the next person does, but I don't really see how they have expanded our activity. Quite frankly, I haven't seen ANY guard's this year that have done something really innovative, but that's just my opinion. Now, I'm not going to call anyone boring because I know breaking major barriers and innovation is hard to accomplish, and it only comes once every few years.... Not just in color guard but in everything! Medicine, sports, television, music, art, etc., etc.! If you want change in something, then get your butt out there and make it happen... If not, at least play nice. You and I have very different views on what defines a successful colorguard, if you're in it for the placement or crowd reaction, then you need to re-check your priorities. Those things will come to a guard that is inherently strong, hard working, innovative,passionate about what they are doing AND has a great staff with great kids to match. You can tell the difference between a group that is in it to win and a group that is in it b/c they love what they are doing. Maybe you can't.. . but I'm old enough to know better. I'm not implying that any of these groups are. . .but maybe their staffs are? I don't know. . . but it's food for thought. Avon's show last year was way beyond it's time. . .think Star of Indiana '93. I think in a decade people will look back and just be in awe. They had hardly no beat in their soundtrack at all. . . .how many people can count that, keep it together and pull off what they did...especially high school kids? They did raise the bar last year. Not to mention their opening movement sequence. So, I guess with that, I'll end. I wish all your programs the very best this season. . . . Edited January 24, 2008 by PrfctTimeOfDay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 hhmm well, formulas or not, I am always amazed at the consistency that many of the Scholastic World guards have year in and year out. Northview, for example, has run the gammit of shows (pretty, agressive, country, hard rock, classical, etc...), but are consistent in training and making finals. They continue that into the fall as well, which to me is pretty darn impressive to get the new kids up to that level so fast. Avon is the same way - their fall guard and winter guard are at the same level. Consistent. James Logan and Flanagan do seem to follow a formula of sorts, but again, they are consistent performers. And from what I can tell, the kids like the sorts of shows the designers provide. I know with my color guards, friends have always told me they could tell it was a "Will Stevenson" color guard because of the way I write, design, etc... do I have a formula?? No. I simply take what I have learned over my years and apply it. Perhaps that means years look the same, but as long as my kids enjoy it, have fun, and feel good about themselves, that is what is most important to me. Do I write innovative work? I try to - or at least it is new and innovative to my kids. I think we all need to focus more on how well the kids are achieving what has been given to them and applaud their efforts no matter what. Good or bad, they are trying and I think it is fantastic! Our goal should be to maintain consistency and help them get better. Our local circuit had their preview show this past weekend - some good, some bad, some ugly, but what a wonderful day of seeing kids enjoying their sport and trying their best. Am I saying we should all accept poor training?? Not at all. I'm saying we should be applauding any and all efforts the students put forth at all levels. So, if that means seeing Shenendehowa pull out their velvet tarp and perform a delicate, pretty show for the 5th year in a row, so be it! As long as they continue their training and growing of the performers, I don't think it should matter what show they choose to perform, formulaic or not. Sorry for making that so long... hopefully it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn shoppe heart Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) Let's just kill 2 birds with one stone here. We are definitely going to have to just agree to disagree. As for the sour grapes comment, there's nothing sour about what I've said. I did come on here and say they didn't deserve their accomplishments or that they suck or demean their programs, what I did say is that their formula shows are getting tiresome and it's time for their staffs to step it up and be creative and innovative. Having a certain style doesn't mean rolling out the same show with a slight change in music and color. . .and thus deserves any criticism that comes their way. Make sure you pass up my reviews throughout the season if the truth hurts. You and I have very different views on what defines a successful colorguard, if you're in it for the placement or crowd reaction, then you need to re-check your priorities. Those things will come to a guard that is inherently strong, hard working, innovative,passionate about what they are doing AND has a great staff with great kids to match. You can tell the difference between a group that is in it to win and a group that is in it b/c they love what they are doing. Maybe you can't.. . but I'm old enough to know better. I'm not implying that any of these groups are. . .but maybe their staffs are? I don't know. . . but it's food for thought. Avon's show last year was way beyond it's time. . .think Star of Indiana '93. I think in a decade people will look back and just be in awe. They had hardly no beat in their soundtrack at all. . . .how many people can count that, keep it together and pull off what they did...especially high school kids? They did raise the bar last year. Not to mention their opening movement sequence. So, I guess with that, I'll end. I wish all your programs the very best this season. . . . You aren't implying, but you are. Being competitive doesn't necessarily mean that you don't love what you are doing as a performer or as a staff member. You can't just "like" the activity and get as far as Logan, Avon, Arcadia and Flanagan have come - they must have love and a great passion for the activity. I think sometimes being "older" doesn't mean your view about this whole thing is right. And again about innovation, I trust that you being older have seen Miamisburg's tribute to Marilyn Monroe - they spun in complete silence. Just saying, it's been done before. Again, I thought Avon did exceptionally well last year, but them spinning to their soundtrack wasn't too groundbreaking. They did raise the bar in movement for Scholastic World, but a few other guards raised the bar in other things as well. Flanagan was out there throwing clean, unison sixes and catching behind their back [raising the bar in equipment skill]. Logan raised the bar in performance - their fast section gave me chills because the intensity that I hadn't seen in that particular class was there. It's impossible to say that one group is more outstanding than the other because they all bring something unique to the table. Of course, I can agree to disagree. I'm just not too fond of calling certain things boring or tiresome. I also saw your posts about NEI's movment and I'd really like to know if you teach any winter guard program. I'd like to see if you're doing a better job of what you call "stepping it up". If you don't you should really go out there and give it try. I'm waiting to see something new from someone and I'm looking forward to seeing you accomplish it. No sarcasm whatsoever. Anyways, putting innovation and competiveness aside, from a designers stand-point "Our goal should be to maintain consistency and help them get better" - Will ain't that the truth?! As long as the kids are enjoying themselves and they are becoming consistent and better, everything else is secondary. Edited January 24, 2008 by pawn shoppe heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrfctTimeOfDay Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) You aren't implying, but you are. Being competitive doesn't necessarily mean that you don't love what you are doing as a performer or as a staff member. You can't just "like" the activity and get as far as Logan, Avon, Arcadia and Flanagan have come - they must have love and a great passion for the activity. I think sometimes being "older" doesn't mean your view about this whole thing is right. And again about innovation, I trust that you being older have seen Miamisburg's tribute to Marilyn Monroe - they spun in complete silence. Just saying, it's been done before. Again, I thought Avon did exceptionally well last year, but them spinning to their soundtrack wasn't too groundbreaking. They did raise the bar in movement for Scholastic World, but a few other guards raised the bar in other things as well. Flanagan was out there throwing clean, unison sixes and catching behind their back [raising the bar in equipment skill]. Logan raised the bar in performance - their fast section gave me chills because the intensity that I hadn't seen in that particular class was there. It's impossible to say that one group is more outstanding than the other because they all bring something unique to the table. Of course, I can agree to disagree. I'm just not too fond of calling certain things boring or tiresome. I also saw your posts about NEI's movment and I'd really like to know if you teach any winter guard program. I'd like to see if you're doing a better job of what you call "stepping it up". If you don't you should really go out there and give it try. I'm waiting to see something new from someone and I'm looking forward to seeing you accomplish it. No sarcasm whatsoever. Anyways, putting innovation and competiveness aside, from a designers stand-point "Our goal should be to maintain consistency and help them get better" - Will ain't that the truth?! As long as the kids are enjoying themselves and they are becoming consistent and better, everything else is secondary. No, I'm not implying. . .I'm stating it as fact. Avon's show was more innovative than any of those shows you mentioned. Sorry. . .break out some tissue, write something defamatory, I don't really care. . .you're not changing my mind. And in time, you'll see I was right. I tried to be respectful, but if you want to get down and dirty and really start digging into this, I'm game. . .but be prepared to hear some really harsh things about the programs you LOVE to defend. Things that are boring and tiresome will get called as such, because that's how I view it and it's my opinion. . and that goes from programs I have loved or been affiliated with in years past. It is what it is and if we aren't able to look at it honestly, then we really won't evolve as an activity. I can assure you that the programs I have worked with previously and/or currently have stepped it up. Life's too short to keep doing the same thing over and over. Again, the devil is in the details, I have never once said anything about the kids, it's all been about what the design staff is creating to give to them. Edited January 24, 2008 by PrfctTimeOfDay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakespin Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Call me the tie breaker if you will BUT..... Avon - totally innovative, new things, and FRESH to the world class. ABSOLUTELY. Shen - It was only their FIRST YEAR in the world class. Yes, sometimes they go with a more lyrical piece and spin spin spin... the "formula" as you call it. Why not - they are elegant, talented, classy and that alone makes them "different" in my opinion. BUT even if you disagree that their style is unique.... how can you foget about their WAY out the box shows like Psycho, Origami, and even last year's show with the stage? If you didn't find that innovative - you simply "missed it." It was a build from start to finish through music, staging and equipment. Even I got THAT! And the most OUT THE BOX SHOW ever was that mannequin show from like 3 years ago. What the heck.... 30 foot mannequins flying around the tarp looked like two shows going on from up top. Totally nuts... but they didn't make the final so maybe you missed that show. ?? Whatever. WHether you're Logan, Shen or Flanagan, I don't envy how scrutinized you are once you get to the world class. Can't wait to see you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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