Tekneek Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I believe the one true area of potential compromise will involve adjudication. Time never gave it the necessary preparation in developing his arguments and preparing himself for the hostile audience created by the way his proposals were written. Maybe that gets to the real source of the problem. His proposals appeared to have much more thought and effort applied to them and were certainly written more intelligently than the rest. Compared to Tim's proposals, George's proposals look like something out of Flowers for Algernon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This thread seems like a bad cycle. Those in favor of the proposals refuse to admit Tim might have poorly presented himself/proposals while those indifferent/against the proposals are holding to thinking he did. Agreed - the point, on either side, is both unproveable and moot. Best to either move along to merits of the proposal itself, or call it a day on this one..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscout96 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This thread seems like a bad cycle. Those in favor of the proposals refuse to admit Tim might have poorly presented himself/proposals while those indifferent/against the proposals are holding to thinking he did. All the while, very few of the people talking about this were actually there, so I don't know what to believe. Too bad nobody got it on video... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAMystreaux Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 All the while, very few of the people talking about this were actually there, so I don't know what to believe. Too bad nobody got it on video... I have a feeling even a video of the event would not change many peoples' minds. We would mostly still watch that with our t(a)inted lenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senagod Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I have a feeling even a video of the event would not change many peoples' minds. We would mostly still watch that with our t(a)inted lenses. Maybe a video with good audio and a court reporter to provide a transcript would help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Re-read the original proposals and tell me Tim was unprepared. His proposals were so much better, detailed and comprehensive, it made the others look amateurish at best. It seems it's more a case of the caucus members being unprepared to discuss Tim's proposals, and to defend their position.The bottom line is that Tim was in hostile territory and there was no way he was going to get a fair shake, which is unfortunate. All proposals deserve at least some consideration and discussion. If someone took the time, and the proposal was accepted through the proper channels, the author deserves their moment to present their proposal. How does poorly written, incomplete crap get passed and well thought out and well written stuff get summarily dismissed? Well, I guess it's time to flesh out the proposal to define usage of amplification and electronics and their impact on the sheets. If I start now I might be "prepared" to present them. That is, if I get a fair shake before everyone makes up their mind. Garry in Vegas You misread. The proposals weren't ill prepared. Tim was in going into the room to defend them. I've posted several times in this thread how he could have come away with something...but he didn't set that as his goal. I'd love to hear Tim explain what his goal was just before he entered that room. If any of you believe, after reading the content of Tim's proposals and knowing the target audience, that you expected Tim to get a "fair and balanced" discussion...I want what you've been smoking. The content was pointed and was challenging the intended audience. I said after firs reading these proposals were dead in the water. The only thing that could have salvaged ANYTHING from this non-meeting of the minds was for Tim to show a willingness to give ground at the outset. His inability to do that drove the end result...impasse. Tim failed in negotiations with a hostile audience, because I believe that was the mission whether planned or not. I guess mission was accomplished if the desired outcome was impasse and scapegoating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Maybe that gets to the real source of the problem. His proposals appeared to have much more thought and effort applied to them and were certainly written more intelligently than the rest. Compared to Tim's proposals, George's proposals look like something out of Flowers for Algernon. ah...but well written doesn't include the content. George already has established cred. with this audience. Tim was an outsider from the very outset. He came to the meeting with negative cred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscout96 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Maybe a video with good audio and a court reporter to provide a transcript would help! What if the person holding the video camera was outside the 40's? lol sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekneek Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ah...but well written doesn't include the content.George already has established cred. with this audience. Tim was an outsider from the very outset. He came to the meeting with negative cred. The self-serving nature and condescending attitude of that bunch has turned me off completely. When a man that can barely string together two coherent sentences has more "cred" with his proposals than Tim's proposals, there is something wrong. If their vision of drum corps is so wonderful, they should be willing to defend it and explain away all questions, doubts, and concerns. Instead, they shut their mouths because they know something is wrong with the cheese and hope that a lot of people don't catch a bad sniff of the rotten product they are serving up. I'm not saying that everything they do is wrong, but the way it is being implemented leaves a lot to be desired. Hopkins is not right just because he is George Hopkins. There needs to be an intellectual reason behind all of it that can be easily articulated to anybody with a question about it. Refusing to discuss it reveals a lot. They effectively are telling anybody that doesn't agree with their vision to hit the road and not look back. I wonder if that is truly the best position to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAMystreaux Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The self-serving nature and condescending attitude of that bunch has turned me off completely. When a man that can barely string together two coherent sentences has more "cred" with his proposals than Tim's proposals, there is something wrong. If their vision of drum corps is so wonderful, they should be willing to defend it and explain away all questions, doubts, and concerns. Instead, they shut their mouths because they know something is wrong with the cheese and hope that a lot of people don't catch a bad sniff of the rotten product they are serving up. I'm not saying that everything they do is wrong, but the way it is being implemented leaves a lot to be desired. Hopkins is not right just because he is George Hopkins. There needs to be an intellectual reason behind all of it that can be easily articulated to anybody with a question about it. Refusing to discuss it reveals a lot. They effectively are telling anybody that doesn't agree with their vision to hit the road and not look back. I wonder if that is truly the best position to take. Or they feel differently than you (and Tim). I highly doubt they refused discussion because they knew Tim was right (whether he is or not), and they hope none of us notice. Sorry, but that is just a silly assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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