what matters and what doesn't!

[audiodb]

But, the traditionalists cannot simply stand upon tradition - doing so is doomed to failure. If that alone were sufficient cause, the changers wouldn't have risen up in the first place. Maybe a conservative vision of drum corps' future is impossible. Who knows? But, it ought to be tried - and soon, because the conservatives' anathema - woodwinds - is coming, and if that happens, the changers will cry, "To the barricades!" Then, the war will be over in a flash. And like a Tinkertoy, drum corps will have been reshaped by the new vision.

So, what tradition still matters today, really? What tradition is helping/can help DCI move into the future? And what tradition is unnecessary? If you answer, please articulate a GOOD reason why.

In my view, it's not just tradition at stake.

The full line of Tinkertoys has been available for 60 years of drum corps and summer marching band activity since WWII. Over time, most people stopped playing with the summer marching band Tinkertoys, though, showing far more interest in drum corps. The market for summer marching band isn't there. Morphing drum corps into marching band now won't just wipe out tradition - it will wipe out the fan base DCI needs to su$tain their operating model.

[ssorrell]

the same things were uttered in the 70's when asymetrical drill began.

the same things were uttered in the 80's with pits and dance and unamped vocals added.

the same things were uttered in the 90's with 3 valve "bugles"

well you get the idea...

why should we be so personally insulted when rules change???

Ha! None of the rules changes that you mentioned before caused such an uproar as these most recent ones.

There was not a mass of people that said they would cease to support drum corps if Side A didn't match Side B.

There was not a mass of people that said they would cease to support drum corps because the Bridgemen guard danced in the 70s, Spirit's guard made dance more mainstream and popular, or because Garfield sang during West Wide Story.

I will give you the third one, though...the change to 3 valves was more controversial, but still, nothing like what we've witnessed over the last few years with amps and electronics.

Many people use that as backup for their argument..."people said the same thing back in the day"...

Where did they say it? All we had was one or two drum corps newspapers. No internet. No discussion forums. We might have talked amongst our friends and fellow corps members, but speaking of the pre-internet days, how would one know that there was a massive outcry about any issue? Because Trivial Ed said something? A Letter to the Editor of DCW?

Were there angry cries from the crowds at shows? Tell me...I'd like to know how anyone can claim that there were huge outcries from angry fans about any rules change prior to the internet. I followed corps in the 70s and joined in the early 80s and although there was discussion amongst friends anytime a rule changed, there certainly was no evidence of such a massive amount of unhappy campers like we see now.

[kmanv]

A relative few on dcp does not an uproar make. other than here where do you get that there is a huge mass of people who are outraged?? has a survey been done at showsthat mostpeople dont know about? you cannot reasonably make the case for a huge uproar because the imperical data is not there. just the same as you said of the 70's 80's etc

[kusankusho]

A relative few on dcp does not an uproar make. other than here where do you get that there is a huge mass of people who are outraged?? has a survey been done at showsthat mostpeople dont know about? you cannot reasonably make the case for a huge uproar because the imperical data is not there. just the same as you said of the 70's 80's etc

First off, as has been pointed out so very many times, the "relative few" you mention outnumber the "extreme few" that support the changes by a ratios of up to > 9:1 on DCP according to polls.

Further, check out some of the comments from CMMs in Facebook DCI discussions if you think it's just the old farts.

Third, anyone have the final numbers of the signatures on the "no amps" petition? How many thousand was that?

Let's put this "relative few" myth to bed for good, shall we? It's a piece of DCI sycophantic propaganda with absolutely no evidence to support it, and plenty of evidence to dismiss it.

[kmanv]

First off, as has been pointed out so very many times, the "relative few" you mention outnumber the "extreme few" that support the changes by a ratios of up to > 9:1 on DCP according to polls.

Further, check out some of the comments from CMMs in Facebook DCI discussions if you think it's just the old farts.

Third, anyone have the final numbers of the signatures on the "no amps" petition? How many thousand was that?

Let's put this "relative few" myth to bed for good, shall we? It's a piece of DCI sycophantic propaganda with absolutely no evidence to support it, and plenty of evidence to dismiss it.

where are the masses of protestors at the dci hq and meetings? 9:1 (ON DCP) . just one website that is not visited by all fans or members or legacy members.

Propaganda???? the same could be said of the unsubstanicated claim that there is a huge movement afoot against all of these proposals. ( when infact most probably do not care one way or another)

I dont remember ever saying that it was just "the old farts"

lets see the "plenty of evidence" that is not anecdotal.

the original purposeof this thread was not solely about the rules changes. It was to remind about what did(and still does) make drum corps great. there are plenty of threads arguing about amps, electronics, kazoos etc.

[kusankusho]

where are the masses of protestors at the dci hq and meetings? 9:1 (ON DCP) . just one website that is not visited by all fans or members or legacy members.

Are you advocating civil disobedience at the DCI meetings? I think a certain amount of reason has to be maintained here.

This has been debated ad nauseum elsewhere. If 92% opposed doesn't mean anything to you then you must be really impressed with the tenacity of that 8%

Propaganda???? the same could be said of the unsubstanicated claim that there is a huge movement afoot against all of these proposals. ( when infact most probably do not care one way or another)

i've presented evidence, all I get from the other side is a rather petulant "we want it and we got it" while completely dismissing protest to the contrary. I guess it's easy to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la-las when the BOD agrees with you.

I dont remember ever saying that it was just "the old farts"

So you agree that some CMMs are not happy too...

lets see the "plenty of evidence" that is not anecdotal.

Hmm - polls, petitions, Facebook, DCP - vows to leave DCI, fans booing. Yeah you're right, no evidence of anything wrong at all. Just another happy day in Pleasantville...

[kmanv]

mmmmmm ok. whatever you say. thanks for playing.

face the fact dcp is not the bellweather of the state of drum corps today. a small minority of the entire activity can vote in an unscientific poll and have any result. It means nothing scientifically.

civil disobediance? Advocating? just asking where they were if they were that outraged. So where were they?

anyone can be unhappy or happy. cmm or not. what difference does this make.

the real question is... these peoposals passed. Are YOU going to turn your back onthe hard work of these kids andthe activity that still has much to offer because it does not fit some arbitrary definination of what "real drum corps" is in your eyes?

The great thing about this country is that you can do any number of things for nonsensical reasons.

I have purposly not discussed what I personally think of the proposals. I prefer to support the current members any way I can. (financially, housing and volunteering) So I am putting my money wher my mouth is so to speak and will continue to aslong as I am able.

Edited February 2, 2008 by kmanv

[audiodb]

where are the masses of protestors at the dci hq and meetings?

Um, we're talking about a non-profit agency for a youth activity, not the government of a global superpower. There are no masses clamoring outside DCI headquarters concerning any issue.

Of course, that means there were no masses of supporters for these rule changes clamoring outside DCI's office or convention location, either....

9:1 (ON DCP) . just one website that is not visited by all fans or members or legacy members.

At least DCP is open to the public, unlike the locations named in your hyperbole above.

the original purposeof this thread was not solely about the rules changes. It was to remind about what did(and still does) make drum corps great.

And what makes dozens of other youth activities great, too. I understand that. But, as you posted it in the "2008 DCI Rule Change Discussions" forum, it should come as no surprise that discussion should touch upon....(wait for it)....rule changes. If you did not want that, why'd you post it here of all places?

[kmanv]

Um, we're talking about a non-profit agency for a youth activity, not the government of a global superpower. There are no masses clamoring outside DCI headquarters concerning any issue.

Of course, that means there were no masses of supporters for these rule changes clamoring outside DCI's office or convention location, either....

At least DCP is open to the public, unlike the locations named in your hyperbole above.

And what makes dozens of other youth activities great, too. I understand that. But, as you posted it in the "2008 DCI Rule Change Discussions" forum, it should come as no surprise that discussion should touch upon....(wait for it)....rule changes. If you did not want that, why'd you post it here of all places?

I did'nt it got moved here by the mods (see page 2 of gd)

you forgot to answer the question by the way...

here it is again.

the real question is... these peoposals passed. Are YOU going to turn your back onthe hard work of these kids andthe activity that still has much to offer because it does not fit some arbitrary definination of what "real drum corps" is in your eyes?

Edited February 2, 2008 by kmanv

[kusankusho]

mmmmmm ok. whatever you say. thanks for playing.

Why not go the whole hog and hit me with a resounding "whatever"?

face the fact dcp is not the bellweather of the state of drum corps today. a small minority of the entire activity can vote in an unscientific poll and have any result. It means nothing scientifically.

Again with the small minority thing. If 92% is a small minority what does that make the other 7%? (Gee I feel like I might have had this conversation before someplace....)

civil disobediance? Advocating? just asking where they were if they were that outraged. So where were they?

Presumably the same place the people clamouring for electronics were at the time......

anyone can be unhappy or happy. cmm or not. what difference does this make.

BINGO - the crux of the whole matter. DCI doesn't care if fans, the CMMs, FMMs etc are happy or not. They want to play with the toys that the majority of their staffs are used to through their association with band. They don't care if a unique sound and artform is being lost.

the real question is... these peoposals passed. Are YOU going to turn your back onthe hard work of these kids andthe activity that still has much to offer because it does not fit some arbitrary definination of what "real drum corps" is in your eyes?

And the real answer is, DCI turned its back on me, so I'm turning my back on it. Don't even try to make that a "you hate the kids" red herring. Until 2 years ago I was teaching those kids. It's not me vs the kids, it's me vs DCI. Don't try to confuse the two to serve your own ends...