Legalhack Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 (edited) Yeah, that style is called teaching by fear. Teaching people NOT to make mistakes as opposed to teaching people to make music... I was trying to speak from the perspective of the performer. As far as the conductor, director, coach, principle, band leader, etc., some believe they should teach and inspire while others think they just have to assemble the right team and give the proper directions. The latter are likely to have more difficulty since, among other things, they are less likely to attract and retain talent ceteris paribus. Edited April 16, 2008 by Legalhack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 but it isn't nonsense. i guess it all comes down to educational philosophy. i believe that drum corps are educational organizations. in that setting, how is it educational to make someone do pushups when they hang a release? that doesn't address the "why did that happen" -- it only addresses the "don't do it again" which doesn't solve the problem at all. there are far more effective ways to maintain group focus in rehearsals. effective teaching is one of those ways. further, drum corps kids don't need to be treated like children. the kids who make the "big boy" corps are smart enough to be treated like adults. the staff isn't "superior" -- they are just there to distribute information, not to dole out punishment. what an insult to the teachers, to ask them to "punish" kids! Okay -- your educational philosophy doesn't see the value in this -- that's fair. But that's not what I was aguing. Even in the snippet of mine that you quoted, you seem to have totally missed my point. I said quite explicitly that there could be a valid argument against this form of "motivation" on its own merits. My very explicit point was that this same type of tactic is used some other activities -- some of them eductional in nature (high school sports, even professional sports which is still instructional on some level). And there are other examples in other activities where this tactic is not used. My ONLY point was that to say drum corps shouldn't make kids do pushups because professional ballet and Broadway stars aren't made to do pushups is not a valid argument. To pick out another unrealted activity that doesn't follow the same course as "proof" that it shouldn't be used is no more valid than it would be to point out another unrelated activity that DOES use a similar technique as proof that it SHOULD be used. I did not say that arguing against push-ups on its own merits was out of bounds or a "nonsense argument". Hope this clears up my point better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjdavistuba Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I don't know about most of you...but where I march, when someone is talking, you give them the respect of looking at them. You don't drop and do push ups and not give them eye contact. It shows a lack of respect. Do push ups on your own free time, or when no one is talking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I don't know about most of you...but where I march, when someone is talking, you give them the respect of looking at them. You don't drop and do push ups and not give them eye contact. It shows a lack of respect. Do push ups on your own free time, or when no one is talking. True.. Oh, and whats all this teaching by fear nonsense. Nobody is 'afraid' to make a mistake, and I dont think anybody has an actual fear of doing pushups or running laps. That said, in my personal experience, things were not so cut and dried as we are making them here. Its not an issue of punishment for mistakes (or not). OF COURSE -the most important thing for the staff to do when they see an error is to give the proper information to fix it. If that doesnt work, give the information in a different manner. If that doesnt work, repeat steps 1 and 2 about 5 more times. If the group is being unreceptive to the information, for example - talking, not focusing on the speaker, making repeated mental errors - etc... then, it is time for a new technique. All of these 'treat them like adults / respect them' opinions are great hypothetically, but the reality is that even the best corps can act like a bunch of whiny middle schoolers at certain times on some days, and when they do, they should be treated as such... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Oh, and whats all this teaching by fear nonsense. Nobody is 'afraid' to make a mistake, and I dont think anybody has an actual fear of doing pushups or running laps. clearly donnie van doren never stood in front of your bell during rehearsal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 clearly donnie van doren never stood in front of your bell during rehearsal. Nope - but if he did, i dont think it would be the pushups or the laps i would be afraid of. In those cases, the fear letting him and/or the line down would probably be the issue. Again, I dont know the guy, just guessing here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 clearly donnie van doren never stood in front of your bell during rehearsal. Donnie Van Doren or Bobby Knight (sorry...I spent A LOT of years in Bloomington)...I've met both of them...I get where Whitedawn's coming from...and you cant deny that those two dont get results with their methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatonekid Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 True..Oh, and whats all this teaching by fear nonsense. Nobody is 'afraid' to make a mistake, and I dont think anybody has an actual fear of doing pushups or running laps. That said, in my personal experience, things were not so cut and dried as we are making them here. Its not an issue of punishment for mistakes (or not). OF COURSE -the most important thing for the staff to do when they see an error is to give the proper information to fix it. If that doesnt work, give the information in a different manner. If that doesnt work, repeat steps 1 and 2 about 5 more times. If the group is being unreceptive to the information, for example - talking, not focusing on the speaker, making repeated mental errors - etc... then, it is time for a new technique. All of these 'treat them like adults / respect them' opinions are great hypothetically, but the reality is that even the best corps can act like a bunch of whiny middle schoolers at certain times on some days, and when they do, they should be treated as such... I totally agree with this post 110%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07-Socks Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I don't know about most of you...but where I march, when someone is talking, you give them the respect of looking at them. You don't drop and do push ups and not give them eye contact. It shows a lack of respect. Do push ups on your own free time, or when no one is talking. I used to do push ups looking up while instructors were telling me something. What's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier2123 Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 (edited) All of these 'treat them like adults / respect them' opinions are great hypothetically, but the reality is that even the best corps can act like a bunch of whiny middle schoolers at certain times on some days, and when they do, they should be treated as such... Ok I'll chime in again. I agree with this. That stuff is fine. People just simply not trying and slacking off is not what I was really talking about anyway. My problem was with instructors whose method of teaching was to basically call ticks and then assign push-ups/laps without ever really giving any info on how to actually fix the musical problem. That's just not teaching, and it always seemed to me that it only served to amplify the problem and just get everyone ###### off in the process. Edited April 17, 2008 by Cavalier2123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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