Liam Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Liam: thanks for bringing this up. I think many people assume that "non profit" status gives organizations an excuse for being "woe is me." Right -- plenty of not-for-profits run very professionally and efficiently and many do not. Same can be said for for-profits. From a organizational/financial standpoint, the two have more in common than not. The basic infrastructure/management/organizational/control environment/etc things that work for a for-profit corporation generally also work for a not-for-profit and the opposite is true as well. The same kinds of things that I see For-profit companies struggle with are the same things I see hurt not-for-profits, as well. This issue that "non-profits" shouldn't make money is a myth. Lots do and more power to them (assuming they continue to follow their charter, of course). Lots of for-profit companies lose money, too -- doesn't mean that they're not "For" profit -- they're just not doing it right .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Unfortunately, I see that the only future for the Open Class corps that want to continue to be non-World Class is DCA, just like St. Johns is doing. Not that that is a bad thing (I kind of prefer it right now), it's just that I'll miss the Garden State and Eastern Mass style circuits, where kids with little or no experience can actually be educated in marching and music. This is a good point that is often overlooked or blown past in these "how did DCI end up like this" threads. The "kid off the street" phenomenon has been replaced with the high school circuit. It hasn't gone away, it has just been transferred from the local drum corps of the 50's and 60's to the local high school of today. Now, one can argue that maybe high schools filled a gap that DCI created by abandoning those corps that filled that mission. I don't really buy that argument -- I think this was more of an infrastructure shift -- high schools had the infrastructure in place to add competitive marching bands to their other sports programs. Since then, they've added competetive cheerleading, too and that wsn't something that was abandoned by some other organization. It just was a natural extension of other high school activities. If anything, I think the continued popularity of drum corps thru the 50s and 60s and into the 70s might have delayed the high school MB boom that was inevitable. So the comparisons of 800 corps in 19-whatever to 40 today is a bogus argument and can't logically be attributed to instrumentation or the DCI COmbine or anything like that. I would hazard to guess that there are more kids ages 16-20 marching in a competitve atmosphere now than there was in 1970 (or whatever baseline year you wish to choose). The question, then, is not how we get back what we had -- that's not doable (or preferrable as you say). The question is where do we go from here to maximize interest and participation going forward? Maybe the current levels are the best we can do (although I highly doubt it). But without open and objective discussion and study, we'll never be able to maximize this activity because we're not being honest with ourselves about where we are now. This constant bickering over apples and oranges comparisons of corps numbers, attendance figures, etc is only spin to make the numbers suit a particular viewpoint of what we did yesterday. But none of it addresses what to do tomorrow and we seem to be leaving those decisions to happenstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndzoneEric Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 The question, then, is not how we get back what we had -- that's not doable (or preferrable as you say). Liam, REALLY great post. I wish you could PEG it at the top of every one of the threads that starts to rehash the billionty-seven arguments over how drum corps has been ruined by this or that. And, IMHO, the question is truly "WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishbonecav Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 This is where you hit the nail on the head. DCI no longer needs the Open Class corps, or Garden State Circuit, Eastern Mass, GLDCA, etc. due to the huge increase in competitive bands. Based on their own statistics, the large majority of rookies in DCI World Class corps never marched in Open Class or DCA. They come straight from the BOA band programs to the top 12-14 corps in World Class. So, why should DCI continue to expend energy and money on the Open Class system if they no longer need it for members? Back when I marched, few members came from bands due the difference in instrumentation plus the "them vs us" attitudes between corps and bands. Now, we're all one big, happy family, so BOA and DCI continue to feed each other.Unfortunately, I see that the only future for the Open Class corps that want to continue to be non-World Class is DCA, just like St. Johns is doing. Not that that is a bad thing (I kind of prefer it right now), it's just that I'll miss the Garden State and Eastern Mass style circuits, where kids with little or no experience can actually be educated in marching and music. Ta-dah! Nice post. Because this is "what it is". Citations, 20th Maine, Suburbanettes, Satellites, Joanettes, Explorers, Granite State Garrison, Diplomats, North Star, Valley Airs, Defenders, Alliance, Boston, 27th, and Spartans used to make for a nice Saturday show in Lowell or Lynn or that funky baseball stadium (where was that? began with a P). How about Open, A, A-60 and All-Girl all in the same show? Did I leave anybody out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndzoneEric Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 They come straight from the BOA band programs to the top 12-14 corps in World Class... So, why should DCI continue to expend energy and money on the Open Class Now, we're all one big, happy family, so BOA and DCI continue to feed each other...I'll miss the Garden State and Eastern Mass style circuits, where kids with little or no experience can actually be educated in marching and music. A few fallacies in all of this: - It's not all about BOA bands. BOA is big in the midwest and some parts of Texas. There are more college-aged kids in World Class corps than BOA kids, according to everything I've read (and witnessed at shows). - BOA and DCI aren't "continuing to feed each other." I haven't heard of too many DCI kids saying, "Wow, now that I've marched in the Cavaliers, I hope I'm good enough to make my high school drum line." - I remember going back east to see several Garden State and Eastern Mass shows. While I agree with you that they had kids with little or no experience, I can't say I actually witnessed much "education in marching and music." It was a competitive outlet, and it didn't seem like there was much serious education taking place. Did the corps fold because there was no circuit left, or did the circuit fold because there were no corps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Blatch Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 put open class finals on a saturday night in the big stadium and things would be different.... Every time I hear that self-deprecating point of view about Open Class, I am reminded of a scene in Blazing Saddles (at 7:30). Go to 7:30 on this clip Elmo Blatch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kansasDC Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 A few fallacies in all of this:- It's not all about BOA bands. BOA is big in the midwest and some parts of Texas. There are more college-aged kids in World Class corps than BOA kids, according to everything I've read (and witnessed at shows). - BOA and DCI aren't "continuing to feed each other." I haven't heard of too many DCI kids saying, "Wow, now that I've marched in the Cavaliers, I hope I'm good enough to make my high school drum line." - I remember going back east to see several Garden State and Eastern Mass shows. While I agree with you that they had kids with little or no experience, I can't say I actually witnessed much "education in marching and music." It was a competitive outlet, and it didn't seem like there was much serious education taking place. Did the corps fold because there was no circuit left, or did the circuit fold because there were no corps? - When I stated "BOA", it also included all of the other competitive band circuits out there. I've lived in eight different states, and each one has an outlet for its bands to compete, even here in Kansas where they just started allowing it a few years ago. And I have also traveled every year for the past 14 years with several World Class corps. Even though many of the members are college age, almost all got their start in competitive HS marching bands, or even middle school. - BOA et. al. feeds the DCI World Class corps members, and DCI feeds the bands its competitions for their members to see all summer. A pretty large number of the fans at most shows now are members of competitive marching bands. This attendance feeds DCI the money it needs to survive, while DCI feeds the bands the pinnacle of the activity (IMHO). - Which east coast corps did you march in back in the 60's or 70's? I marched 16 years in a corps that taught virtually all of its members from scratch how to read music, how to play, how to march, how to travel, how to do laundry, etc. It may not have been at the "Masters" level that most World Class corps teach at now, but, then again, you don't see professional educators trying to teach Quantum Physics to first graders either. When you start with a complete novice, you teach them the basics and hope they continue that education at a higher level somewhere else. These corps helped educate alot of people in the basics of life, and many of those people that I know are now extremely successful in life. Even those that marched in "lowly" Garden State and Eastern Mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legalhack Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 A few fallacies in all of this:- It's not all about BOA bands. BOA is big in the midwest and some parts of Texas. There are more college-aged kids in World Class corps than BOA kids, according to everything I've read (and witnessed at shows). - BOA and DCI aren't "continuing to feed each other." I haven't heard of too many DCI kids saying, "Wow, now that I've marched in the Cavaliers, I hope I'm good enough to make my high school drum line." - HS bands and corps have long had synergistic relationships in the sense that (A) bands feed off corps because many HS bands have DC members, alums and/or staff as instructors (or creative staff) and (B) corps feed off bands because some bands (1) provide the "day jobs" of corps staff (with summers off), (2) serve as test tubes for the ideas of corps arrangers and drill writers, (3) are sources of members and/or are training grounds for instructional staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndzoneEric Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 Even those that marched in "lowly" Garden State and Eastern Mass. I don't know why you would ever say they were "lowly." I was, am, and will be (for as long as they last) a fan of the underdog corps of the (now) Open Class. My comment about E-Mass and GS Circuit (extended to DCM and other formerly active circuits as well) was based on my personal observations as an outsider looking-in that before the circuits closed up shop, there didn't seem to be much going on there in terms of development... development of the circuits themselves and development of the corps making up the circuit. It seems like whenever the competitive aspects of the activity rear their heads, sound business decisions become secondary. Self- preservation from a business standpoint is one thing... decision-making based on what will preserve the status quo in competitive terms seems to be a part of the process all too often. IMHO, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishbonecav Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 I don't know why you would ever say they were "lowly." I was, am, and will be (for as long as they last) a fan of the underdog corps of the (now) Open Class. My comment about E-Mass and GS Circuit (extended to DCM and other formerly active circuits as well) was based on my personal observations as an outsider looking-in that before the circuits closed up shop, there didn't seem to be much going on there in terms of development... development of the circuits themselves and development of the corps making up the circuit.It seems like whenever the competitive aspects of the activity rear their heads, sound business decisions become secondary. Self- preservation from a business standpoint is one thing... decision-making based on what will preserve the status quo in competitive terms seems to be a part of the process all too often. IMHO, of course. Chronicling the DCM and DCE circuits and their relationship with DCI "when it all came down" might yield some interesting (or unpleasant) anecdotes. But you probably wouldn't get those anecdotes uninhibited from Tony or Roman because of they way they conduct themselves professionally (yes, that is a compliment to both). There are sources to describe this push-pull, but you might have to have a credential to get the info from them and guarantee anonymity. Let's just say that one circuit's show development was another's hurdle to hegemony. DCE was a juggernaut with corps at 4 levels of competition. So was DCM (wait, they had 5, or if you count Cadet Corps, 6, senior makes 7). Cadet Corps was "development" in spades...Phantom Regiment Cadets, Madison Jr. Scouts, Colt Cadets, Blue Star Cadets, etc. In the East, but further back in time, there were the Patriot Cadets (Patriots) and Greece Shoreliner Cadets (Cadets of Greece) to name a few. We used to have CCI, for heavens sake (look it up!). Before the circuits "closed up shop", this was the structure. (It's starting again, Eric. Make it stop!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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