This is NOT

[TerriTroop]

If Pioneer was competing 20 years ago with the same show, out of 40 corps, they would place 40th.

I doubt that. I was in a corps that would have been in the mix of that, and Pio would have kicked our rears in all likelihood.

[TerriTroop]

This is getting to the heart of my point. The pride that you felt watching your friend would be the same regardless of whatever division they were in. Being world class does not in any way make you a better drum corps participant. I absolutely guarantee you that your friend would have been much more fulfilled by the experience of competing for and possibly winning an open class title, then the pat on the back kudos for ending their season two nights earlier than the majority of other corps in world class. I speak from a bit of experience here. I marched both div 1 and divIII. The div 1 corps I marched at for 3 years didn't place any higher than 18th all three years I marched. The div III corps I aged out with won the title that year and to this day remains by far my most memorable drum corps season.

That sounds like a problem within the Div 1 corps you marched. Instead of being bummed constantly about placement, they should have focused more on the quality of the internal identity of the corps. (as far as I know, you could have marched Troopers, and I would still stand by my statement because we've had those kind of years, too.)

[SF2K4]

I have a question... is Pioneer's musical identity IRISH music or CELTIC music? 'Cause I keep reading Irish but then see complaints about it always being Celtic... because if it's the much broader Irish, I'm curious as to why they don't touch on Irish Rock, like Come On Eileen? Or why not Riverdance?

[BozzlyB]

So, as we lament the ever-shrinking ranks of WC, BozzlyB would have another WC corps go by the wayside and see WC shrink even more. That kind of elitist tripe is beyond immature. It’s self-destructively myopic. If it works for the kids, their parents, the corps, and DCI, it's alright by me. Pioneer has classy kids, is financially sound, and well run. Would that more corps were run like them. At some point, they may be the only one left.

Hold your heads high kids, you are well respected for all the right reasons.

dannyboy – Awesome response. Right on the mark.

And you're calling ME elitist??? I'm coming from the position that a corps changing divisions is still a corps being active and competing in DCI. Clearly you are of the mindset that if a corps isn't in world class they aren't worth counting. I honestly meant for this thread to be a discussion of the benifits of being highly compettitve in open class vs being consistently uncompettitive in world class. Someone made the point that they are compettitive in last place??????? The diference between last and second to last was almost 4 points. That is in no way compettitive. My point, (which seems to be getting overlooked here in the hailstorm of knee jerk defensiveness that takes place any time someone criticizes Pioneer), is that all of the things related to the quality experience that the kids at Pioneer are having, would continue to be the experience regardless of what division they are in. No one can honestly say that being compettitive IN ADDITION TO having a quality experience would not result in a better overall member experience.

[Roark1]

They don't base their success on just their placement, why should you. It's up to them to decide. If you want them to go in a diffent direction, get involved with the corps. Otherwise let them do what they do.

Edit: left out two words

Edited August 8, 2008 by Roark1

[TerriTroop]

And you're calling ME elitist??? I'm coming from the position that a corps changing divisions is still a corps being active and competing in DCI.

Um... no, they would not be competing in DCI. That's the point many are making. They would get less money and FAR less exposure to DCI-caliber audiences due to the more limited number of open class competitions.

Clearly you are of the mindset that if a corps isn't in world class they aren't worth counting. I honestly meant for this thread to be a discussion of the benifits of being highly compettitve in open class vs being consistently uncompettitive in world class. Someone made the point that they are compettitive in last place??????? The diference between last and second to last was almost 4 points. That is in no way compettitive. My point, (which seems to be getting overlooked here in the hailstorm of knee jerk defensiveness that takes place any time someone criticizes Pioneer), is that all of the things related to the quality experience that the kids at Pioneer are having, would continue to be the experience regardless of what division they are in. No one can honestly say that being compettitive IN ADDITION TO having a quality experience would not result in a better overall member experience.

Let me see if I understand:

In YOUR opinion, competitive success is just as important as quality experience. If a corps improves its competitive success and maintains the other qualities within the corps, it automatically improves the experience for the kids, so for that reason Pio should bump itself back down to OC because that would combine the two aspects together.

Well, that's your opinion (if I summed it up properly). The Pioneer organization and DCI have another opinion, along with those who are disagreeing with your premise. Pioneer is capable of pulling off a WC tour while maintaining fantastic financial stability and a healthy environment for its participants. They have met the criteria for WC status, and they are taking advantage of that by exposing their membership to a WC tour environment as well as getting paid better for appearances.

I think the debate you wish to have is really more about people's personal choices rather than "should Pioneer be WC." (and I think that debate has probably already occurred in other threads, but it's always interesting.)

[BozzlyB]

They don't base their success on just their placement, why should you. It's them to decide. If you want them to go in a diffent direction, get involved with the corps. Otherwise let them do what they do.

You can cut and paste that response into any thread on DCP. Is this not an online forum for the discussion of the activity? Corps are criticized daily on DCP, yet there seems to be this undercurrent of handling Pioneer with kid gloves. If I had started a thread criticizing Hoppy or the Cadets I would have had 50 people agreeing with me within an hour.

[CorpsPhan]

You can cut and paste that response into any thread on DCP. Is this not an online forum for the discussion of the activity? Corps are criticized daily on DCP, yet there seems to be this undercurrent of handling Pioneer with kid gloves. If I had started a thread criticizing Hoppy or the Cadets I would have had 50 people agreeing with me within an hour.

And you would have had at least another 50 accusing you of a) hating the Cadets merely because of Hoppy, b ) forgetting it's about "the kids", c)just hating because they're the Cadets d) yadda, yadda, yadda.

Long story short, whatever Pioneer does appears to be working for them. Isn't that enough?

[PioneerWebmaster]

You can cut and paste that response into any thread on DCP. Is this not an online forum for the discussion of the activity? Corps are criticized daily on DCP, yet there seems to be this undercurrent of handling Pioneer with kid gloves. If I had started a thread criticizing Hoppy or the Cadets I would have had 50 people agreeing with me within an hour.

I think the difference is that most people, even if they don't agree with the way that Pioneer is run, understand why it is run the way that it is and why it is "successful". So rather than kicking a corps when its down in placements, they add words of encouragement and try to add positive thoughts. It also may be that they are familiar enough with Pioneer to know that somethings aren't going to change... that they are what they are... or that it's going to take a long time to change. Roman holds the corps very close to his heart. And while he is always open for suggestions, opinions, and criticism... it's ultimately still up to him and a select few what direction the corps is going to go. He's going to evaluate any changes to the way things are run very thoroughly before making a move. We took big strides this year by switching from G bugles to B-flat. It was a move that he hated to make. But, when the judges almost flat out tell you that you're going to take last place as long as you're playing on G bugles, he was willing to make the move to help keep the corps competitive. But when it comes to the hats, Irish/Celtic music, and a few other issues... he'll listen and take everything you say into consideration, but it's probably not going to change. Most of the staff knows that when they come to Pioneer. The members may not know that in its entirety, but they do know that they're not coming to a corps that's going to contend for a championship.

That said, all of us strongly believe that if we could scrape up a dozen or more brass players and a few more guard, that the corps could compete for a semifinals spot. The program itself is not going to hold us out of semifinals regardless of what most folks think. What is going to keep us out of semifinals is a lack of members... and to a certain extent, too high of a ratio of young/inexperienced members. Every winter we start out with high hopes and a ton of interest in the corps. But for whatever reason, some of that interest fades as winter pushes into spring. A lot of potential members keeps us hanging with promises that they are going to march, but they can't make this camp or that camp for various reasons. So we end up counting those folks into the numbers, only to have them not show in the end which leaves us scrambling for members. So the area where we really need the help is in recruitment. And yes, it is hard to sell a last place product every year. However, there are a lot of things going for us and hopefully we can put the pieces together one way or another. I know that there are a lot of people dedicated to making it happen.

Edited August 8, 2008 by PioneerWebmaster

[ScoutMello]

I think everyone has it wrong when it comes to Pioneer. It's not about the money, or about winning all the time. Its about..wait for it...here it comes...the KIDS.

You can't do much for the kids without money. The best thing Pioneer can do for the kids is make sure they're as financially stable as possible. (This goes for any corps)

From the clip I saw in the theatres last night, Pioneer is performing quite well. Regardless of placement, the should be proud of what they put out.

Edited August 8, 2008 by ScoutMello