OK Olde Phartz

[drumcorpsfan4567]

Having read one of Hoppy's recent blog posts on Hoplog, I seriously doubt that Hopkins is going to change the direction he's going. He said something about not letting negativity into his life. I'm willing to bet that the Cadets are going to put WSS on the field next year and are absolutely going to slaughter it with electronics, amped brass, you name it and it's legal and they'll have it. I don't know what other corps will do but don't lose sight of the fact that you can put a synthesizer on the field next year which I believe is the single grossest change that DCI has ever seen. I know I threw a hissy-fit on here as soon as electronics were passed a couple months ago and I shouldn't have but I stand by my opinions that 2008 will be the last great drum corps year (and thank goodness for Phantom Regiment making it truly great) and starting immediately next year there will be a huge decline.

[DRB]

I will probably be crucified for some of my thoughts but here goes.

As a person who was very involved in the activity in the 70’s and 80’s, my perspective on the current situation is based on what I saw develop during this time.

I have not been active or seen any shows in the past 20 years. I was given a ticket to the quarterfinals at a local theater and was surprised at what I saw.

Prelims/Finals

In my time, prelims were a two day affair. Although I do not have the statistics, there were probably upwards of 50 corps in prelims, maybe more. Back then, there were only prelims and finals. You either finished top 12 or you were out. Given the limited number of groups today, I think DCI should go back to this system. It’s highly unlikely that a 15th place group is going to improve enough in 24 hours to make finals. I would suggest that open class prelims be on Wednesday with finals on Friday and world class prelims on Thursday with finals on Saturday. This would give the finalists 48 hours to change/improve/perfect whatever they want.

Show Design

The metamorphosis in show design is stunning. Certainly things change with time but are the changes for the better? Is there such a thing anymore as a color presentation? Does anyone bring the American flag onto the field? Is there any reverence to our past? It wasn’t that long ago that having the flag on the field was a requirement.

It was really difficult to understand to what extent show design has changed. In my outlook, there are no more color guards. There are dance troupes. There are not even unis which in any way match the brass & percussion. Some of the dance troupe attire looked like it came from K-Mart. I realize this is a negative statement. I fear that the activity has lost much of the “class” we worked to develop.

It felt like an attempt to be Broadway rather than being corps. There is nothing wrong with being either one. It appears creative side has overtaken the performance and execution side. Is there still a .1 penalty for drops? I saw many drops throughout the evening. Corps always prided themselves on execution and precision. Certainly the visual aspects are more demanding. At the same time, I saw visual breakdowns in the top four units. It may be worth considering re-instituting some of the old tic sheets. I think there are far more tics out there than people realize.

And another quick issue. Are there no longer defined beginnings and ends? I noted corps having pits playing and/or movement just prior to the main part of the show starting. Why is this allowed?

Music Selection

I remember the 1st time I saw some of the major corps, Phantom Regiment, Kilties, Oakland Crusaders, Spirit of Atlanta, Blue Devils, Vanguard, Garfield. To this day, I think I could still hum some of their music. Beethovens 9th, Flight of the Bumblebee, Georgia, Pagliacci, El Gato Triste as examples. I just sat and watched several hours of performances. I don’t think I could hum anything I heard. This is just a thought, and I will probably be severely criticized, but I would love to see someone play music that is catchy and memorable. Not to say that anyone is playing anything which is improper, it just does not leave the same impact on the next generation as it did for me a few years ago.

I’m going to use Spirit of Atlanta as an example, I’m not individualizing or saying this only applies to them. I would suggest that every drum corps fan of the 70’s and 80’s at sometime left a stadium humming Georgia and/or Let It Be Me. Who left IU humming something from BD? Who left humming something from Garfield? Who left humming anything that they will still remember years down the road? I believe that if the activity is going to continue to attract members and grow rather than decline, that improved music selection will be a key factor. I’m not saying we have to back up to the 1930’s. I’m suggesting that revisiting and revising some of those great favorites from 20-30 years ago could be a healthy and prosperous move. When I see BD, I expect to hear some beautiful jazz with creative arrangements. I’m still not sure what I heard from BD. Madison, Troopers, & Carolina Crown were, in my opinion, headed in the right direction with their pieces.

And drop the narration stuff. Maybe a little like Bluecoats had was tolerable but theirs was probably too much as well. Garfield was off the deep end. The narration was completely detached from the musical performance and was distracting at best. For decades, corps designed shows that people could understand and appreciate without narration. If the activity has reached the point whereby narration is necessary, I suggest that the activity has moved backward by decades.

Brass

I was told that the traditional 2-valve G bugles are gone in favor of 3-valve B flat horns. If the activity is going to be honest to itself, the name should be changed. These are no longer drum & bugle corps (D&B) because bugles are not being used. They are drum and brass bands (D&BB). I’m not passing judgment here about the merits of these, I’m just being honest. I think the activity has lost a great deal of uniqueness in that the sound is not nearly as bright and full sounding with the B flat. But it is what it is. I suspect the driving factors behind this were easier transition for band students and cost. I just want the activity to be honest and there is nothing wrong with being D&BB. Just do not claim to be D&B when you are not D&B.

Percussion

As a former percussionist, I was amazed and disappointed at the same time. I do recall the time when the pit was created. I also recall when everything was carried. I think the pit has grown out of control. I specifically watched one of the top eight and unfortunately cannot recall specifically which D&BB it was but the pit extended 30 yards! It seems like there is a contest as to who can find the most stuff to throw in there.

Does anyone beside me enjoy watching some of the 70’s and 80’s corps on You Tube? If you’ve not done so, go watch some of them. Notice how clean the field is compared to today. Sure there has been some interesting musical effects added, but at what cost? What would happen if someone dropped about 50% of the pit and went back to marching equipment? A renaissance could develop in the activity by having some movement in this direction.

There’s no easy way to say this but I’m really disappointed with the drum tuning. The snares sound like thud with snap and the altos (formerly known as tenors) are way too high in pitch. That may be why they do not seem to project as well. And for the bass lines, drop the high drum and add some bottom out there. If I were running one of the lines, I would go back and try 15” snares with Silver Dots. At least they had some tone quality.

On a positive note, the demand is there given the number of notes played combined with the running across the field. Is it tougher than those of years ago? I’m not sure.

[RichCranford82]

ah....but again...the age old argument....there are few MUSTS in this activity other than show up on time, leave on time, don't bring too many people and don't go out of bounds.....there aren't that many MUSTS.

I think the corps from Concord happily proved that fact this year.

Exactly which argument are you referring to? If I read your post correctly you would be in favor of "anything goes", am I correct? If so, I'll quit right here because it would be obvious that we look at things very differently and I'll happily leave it at that.

[Perry S]

I will probably be crucified for some of my thoughts but here goes.

As a person who was very involved in the activity in the 70’s and 80’s, my perspective on the current situation is based on what I saw develop during this time.

I have not been active or seen any shows in the past 20 years. I was given a ticket to the quarterfinals at a local theater and was surprised at what I saw.

Prelims/Finals

In my time, prelims were a two day affair. Although I do not have the statistics, there were probably upwards of 50 corps in prelims, maybe more. Back then, there were only prelims and finals. You either finished top 12 or you were out. Given the limited number of groups today, I think DCI should go back to this system. It’s highly unlikely that a 15th place group is going to improve enough in 24 hours to make finals. I would suggest that open class prelims be on Wednesday with finals on Friday and world class prelims on Thursday with finals on Saturday. This would give the finalists 48 hours to change/improve/perfect whatever they want.

Show Design

The metamorphosis in show design is stunning. Certainly things change with time but are the changes for the better? Is there such a thing anymore as a color presentation? Does anyone bring the American flag onto the field? Is there any reverence to our past? It wasn’t that long ago that having the flag on the field was a requirement.

It was really difficult to understand to what extent show design has changed. In my outlook, there are no more color guards. There are dance troupes. There are not even unis which in any way match the brass & percussion. Some of the dance troupe attire looked like it came from K-Mart. I realize this is a negative statement. I fear that the activity has lost much of the “class” we worked to develop.

It felt like an attempt to be Broadway rather than being corps. There is nothing wrong with being either one. It appears creative side has overtaken the performance and execution side. Is there still a .1 penalty for drops? I saw many drops throughout the evening. Corps always prided themselves on execution and precision. Certainly the visual aspects are more demanding. At the same time, I saw visual breakdowns in the top four units. It may be worth considering re-instituting some of the old tic sheets. I think there are far more tics out there than people realize.

And another quick issue. Are there no longer defined beginnings and ends? I noted corps having pits playing and/or movement just prior to the main part of the show starting. Why is this allowed?

Music Selection

I remember the 1st time I saw some of the major corps, Phantom Regiment, Kilties, Oakland Crusaders, Spirit of Atlanta, Blue Devils, Vanguard, Garfield. To this day, I think I could still hum some of their music. Beethovens 9th, Flight of the Bumblebee, Georgia, Pagliacci, El Gato Triste as examples. I just sat and watched several hours of performances. I don’t think I could hum anything I heard. This is just a thought, and I will probably be severely criticized, but I would love to see someone play music that is catchy and memorable. Not to say that anyone is playing anything which is improper, it just does not leave the same impact on the next generation as it did for me a few years ago.

I’m going to use Spirit of Atlanta as an example, I’m not individualizing or saying this only applies to them. I would suggest that every drum corps fan of the 70’s and 80’s at sometime left a stadium humming Georgia and/or Let It Be Me. Who left IU humming something from BD? Who left humming something from Garfield? Who left humming anything that they will still remember years down the road? I believe that if the activity is going to continue to attract members and grow rather than decline, that improved music selection will be a key factor. I’m not saying we have to back up to the 1930’s. I’m suggesting that revisiting and revising some of those great favorites from 20-30 years ago could be a healthy and prosperous move. When I see BD, I expect to hear some beautiful jazz with creative arrangements. I’m still not sure what I heard from BD. Madison, Troopers, & Carolina Crown were, in my opinion, headed in the right direction with their pieces.

And drop the narration stuff. Maybe a little like Bluecoats had was tolerable but theirs was probably too much as well. Garfield was off the deep end. The narration was completely detached from the musical performance and was distracting at best. For decades, corps designed shows that people could understand and appreciate without narration. If the activity has reached the point whereby narration is necessary, I suggest that the activity has moved backward by decades.

Brass

I was told that the traditional 2-valve G bugles are gone in favor of 3-valve B flat horns. If the activity is going to be honest to itself, the name should be changed. These are no longer drum & bugle corps (D&B) because bugles are not being used. They are drum and brass bands (D&BB). I’m not passing judgment here about the merits of these, I’m just being honest. I think the activity has lost a great deal of uniqueness in that the sound is not nearly as bright and full sounding with the B flat. But it is what it is. I suspect the driving factors behind this were easier transition for band students and cost. I just want the activity to be honest and there is nothing wrong with being D&BB. Just do not claim to be D&B when you are not D&B.

Percussion

As a former percussionist, I was amazed and disappointed at the same time. I do recall the time when the pit was created. I also recall when everything was carried. I think the pit has grown out of control. I specifically watched one of the top eight and unfortunately cannot recall specifically which D&BB it was but the pit extended 30 yards! It seems like there is a contest as to who can find the most stuff to throw in there.

Does anyone beside me enjoy watching some of the 70’s and 80’s corps on You Tube? If you’ve not done so, go watch some of them. Notice how clean the field is compared to today. Sure there has been some interesting musical effects added, but at what cost? What would happen if someone dropped about 50% of the pit and went back to marching equipment? A renaissance could develop in the activity by having some movement in this direction.

There’s no easy way to say this but I’m really disappointed with the drum tuning. The snares sound like thud with snap and the altos (formerly known as tenors) are way too high in pitch. That may be why they do not seem to project as well. And for the bass lines, drop the high drum and add some bottom out there. If I were running one of the lines, I would go back and try 15” snares with Silver Dots. At least they had some tone quality.

On a positive note, the demand is there given the number of notes played combined with the running across the field. Is it tougher than those of years ago? I’m not sure.

I love this post. I saw my first show in 1976 and I too agree with what you are saying. And I've said in other posts of mine that if we we're to be honest then it has actually become MIB (MARCHNG BAND INTERNATIONAL) TOO BE HONEST THAT IS.

[Jeff Ream]

pretty close. tho i'm not old, the electronics thing scares the hell out of me only from nightmares i have seen with marching bands

[BRASSO]

no....olde phartz are defined one....by age....and two....by attitude.

"You kids get off my lawn."

"Drum corps don't play any recognizable tunes anymore."

"We should bring back the tic system."

"DCI is destroying drum corps."

How am I doing with the attitude part?

Pretty accurate in my book.

I see just as many young people with great attitudes that did not like narration. So your comments seemed an oversimplification, and an inacurrate portrayal in my view. I like The Cadets. But both young and old alike found their particular use of narration in this particular show this year flawed. Their Director even admitted as such at Finals Week to a reporter in a frank and candid moment.

.

Likewise, the appeal this year of the the Phantom Regiment, Blue Stars, Boston, Crown and some other Corps was shared by both young and old alike.

You may want to rethink your wrong headed assumptions where your thread set out to pit older people with younger people here. The thread was divisive, where it need not have been. Had an older person started a thread with a pjorative referral on young people as " newbie band geeks " the thread would have been just as offensive as you're referral of older fans as " olde phartz ".

Neither is called for ( in my opinion ).

This was a terrific year for the majority of fans...both old and young alike. Those who want to pit the old and the young against one another, or the narration vs. non narration, or semi- narration issue as one that is age specific are simply wrong in my view.

This was a good year to celebrate the Corps that seemed to entertain us the most. Those Corps, whether coincidental or not, used little to no narration, little to no amplification, little to no large props o the field, and with themes that were easily identifiable.

And both the Young.... and the not so Young...... were equally entertained by these Corps.

Edited August 13, 2008 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

I see just as many young people with great attitudes that did not like narration. So your comments seemed an oversimplification, and an inacurrate portrayal in my view. I like The Cadets. But both young and old alike found their use of narration in this show tgis year flawed. Their Director even admitted as such at Finals week to a reporter.

.

Likewise, the appeal this year of the the Phantom Regiment, Blue Stars, Boston, Crown and some other Corps was shared by both young and old alike.

You may want to rethink your wrong headed assumptions where your thread set out to pit older people with younger people here. The thread was divisive, where it need not have been. Had an older person started a thread with a pjorative referral on young people as " newbie band geeks " the thread would have been just as offensive as you're referral of older fans as " olde phartz ".

Neither is called for ( in my opinion ).

This was a terrific year for the majority of fans...both old and young alike. Those who want to pit the old and the young against one another, or the narration vs. non narration, or semi- narration issue as one that is age specific are simply wrong in my view.

This was a good year to celebrate the Corps that seemed to entertain us the most. Those Corps, whether coincidental or not, used little to no narration, little to no amplification, little to no large props o the field, and with themes that were easily identifiable.

And both the Young.... and the not so Young...... were equally entertained by these Corps.

[Jeff Ream]

Well, let's be honest here with those assumptions:

For amplification, we had 20+ years of band programs to look at it . . .most of which did amplification and narrative storytelling poorly.

Most of what we've seen in drum corps since regarding spoken word and narrative has been a ham-handed attempt at storytelling that designers are apparently doing from muscle-memory of their BOA shows; ones that cover up playing or section weakness, rather than figuring out DCI kids can actually handle a full 11 minute musical performance.

There have been certain exceptions that have been more accepted by the general "fan" community: those are the shows that use it as a design effect, rather than as a design "unifier".

Now, let's hit the rewind button here and look at electronics, which have been legal for some time in the band community.

Just like with amplification, more often than not, they're either used to cover up a section weakness (more synthed bass for the band with no sousaphones, etc), or to cover for programs that run out of gas and have kids that can't play for 10+ minutes.

In effect, 2009 will be 2004 all over again in regards to these new tools; either they'll be overused (I have a feeling Crossmen will do this, thanks to their RRHS allegiances now), or they'll be in there "just because we can do this now" (more than likely Cadets 2010). . at electronics worst, we'll be subjected to shows chock full of lame enviromental effects ( I can just see a PBS inspired "Ecosystems" show now, with narration).

Of course, cue all the progressive thought that you shouldn't stifle creativity, that designers need these tools to create, if you know so much how come you aren't a designer . . .and so on.

To that, I can only offer that progressive ideas are exactly that, that being "progressive", which means evolutionary in nature. To be subjected to the same ideas borne of the previous season of BOA or WGI is the antithesis of that, and isn't progressive . . .it's lazy.

I'd like to be proven wrong, but, given those "assumptions" we've referenced before regarding 2004 . . .well, I have my doubts.

and yes bleed over from WGI is scary all over the place. can anyone do a drum feature now that doesnt look and sound like it was ripped off the previous years dvds?

[Jeff Ream]

ah....but again...the age old argument....there are few MUSTS in this activity other than show up on time, leave on time, don't bring too many people and don't go out of bounds.....there aren't that many MUSTS.

I think the corps from Concord happily proved that fact this year.

it could probably use a few must nots

[felixh]

As long as there is a big, full hornline sound, I am ok with changes.....