BlooContraGuy Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I hear that the cavaliers are going up to 80 horns too... Anyone know if this is just a rumor or is there any truth to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussglassman Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I march with a 4v G DEG and I like it much better than the Kanstul. I feel the balance is better and it puts out unfathomable sound. Also the lead pipe on the Kanstul is too close to the valves for me. This makes it way too uncomfortable. The 4v DEG has almost perfect hand-holds. Especially compared to the 3v which (to me) has almost none.Mine is 16 years old and has had to have very few repairs. And the ones it has had were very minor. Your 4 valve Dynasty is 16 years old?!?!?! um.....that sounds like a 1-off custom deal. Like maybe someone added a 4th valve, or a whole new 4 valve assembly to what was a 2 or 3 valve Dynasty Supermag. Could you post a pic of it? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeme70 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Your 4 valve Dynasty is 16 years old?!?!?! um.....that sounds like a 1-off custom deal. Like maybe someone added a 4th valve, or a whole new 4 valve assembly to what was a 2 or 3 valve Dynasty Supermag. Could you post a pic of it? Thanks I'm assuming you've seen a 4V DEG before, just not one of that vintage. I know that Bluecoats had the 3V DEGs in 1990, but no idea when they added the 4th valve as an option...but I know they exist, as mine is about 4' away at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussglassman Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) I'm assuming you've seen a 4V DEG before, just not one of that vintage. I know that Bluecoats had the 3V DEGs in 1990, but no idea when they added the 4th valve as an option...but I know they exist, as mine is about 4' away at the moment... I marched a 4 valve 5/4 DEG in Mandarins in 2003. Mandarins purchased one 4 valver in 2000, and 2 more in 2002, then a set of used 3 valve supermags from Phantom for '03. I saw a promotional picture of a prototype in 1999, but I wasnt aware they had been in production before that. I followed contra lines pretty closely and I cannot remember any top-12 corps using 4 valvers before 1999. Thats why I was saying that it may have been a 1-off custom job. There are lots of independent shops that specialize in modifying tubas, adding valves, cutting tubing from BBb to C, that kind of stuff. If the person who made that posting would be willing to post a picture of his horn, I could tell if it was the same design they still produce, or if it was a custom job. I think the best way to tell is that the production 2 or 3 valve horn has the front-body tubing sitting to the right side of the bell, with the valves tucked underneath. http://www.middlehornleader.com/Dynasty%20...Super%20Mag.jpg The 4 valve horn had the front body tubing moved to the left side of the bell, and the valveset sticks out quite a bit more, but both styles, and even the BBb M880 which is still in production, use the same bell and body tubing parts. http://www.dynastyband.com/graphics/M380.jpg http://www.dynastyband.com/product/product.php?ModelNum=M380 ......Also, you spoke of hand-holds. The production M380 5/4 4 valve GG contrabass had no hand holds whatsoever. There were no finger rings anywhere on the horn, and you had to use the 4th valve stem as the pinky-holder. There was no place to put the thumb, which made that horn one of the most uncomfortable instruments I have ever played. The sound quality was unquestionable, but the Kanstul was much easier to throw around. When Dynasty introduced their M875 tuba, they at least added a thumb ring, but it was placed too high, and was only useful when carrying the horn out in front of you. http://www.dynastyband.com/product/product...delNum=010-M875 Dynasty really doesnt have any concept of how to build a comfortable-to-march instrument, which is why I'm almost certain the contra you have is the result of someone's imagination, whether a single-production factory prototype, or something one person had a shop custom modify for him. I hate to feel like I'm arguing with you, but I know Dynasty horns quite well, and I have taken a great deal of pride in defending them to people who still know them for the reputation of the M845 (the worst marching tuba ever built...) http://www.dynastyband.com/product/product...delNum=010-M845 Edited April 10, 2009 by ussglassman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeme70 Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 ......Also, you spoke of hand-holds. The production M380 5/4 4 valve GG contrabass had no hand holds whatsoever. There were no finger rings anywhere on the horn, and you had to use the 4th valve stem as the pinky-holder. There was no place to put the thumb, which made that horn one of the most uncomfortable instruments I have ever played. The sound quality was unquestionable, but the Kanstul was much easier to throw around. When Dynasty introduced their M875 tuba, they at least added a thumb ring, but it was placed too high, and was only useful when carrying the horn out in front of you. http://www.dynastyband.com/product/product...delNum=010-M875 Dynasty really doesnt have any concept of how to build a comfortable-to-march instrument, which is why I'm almost certain the contra you have is the result of someone's imagination, whether a single-production factory prototype, or something one person had a shop custom modify for him. I hate to feel like I'm arguing with you, but I know Dynasty horns quite well, and I have taken a great deal of pride in defending them to people who still know them for the reputation of the M845 (the worst marching tuba ever built...) http://www.dynastyband.com/product/product...delNum=010-M845 I would love to know if my horn is a custom job, or just maybe a later design. Mine is great for marching - balance is perfect (it's sometimes easier to leave it balanced on my shoulder, no hands, than it is to set it down). Balance is good enough that I can spin it up if I want. It has the tubing bent for a perfect hand-hold and a reinforced plate where it hits the shoulder. The thumb ring I have is attached to the tuning slide as a Tune Any Note type feature (I have the chromed thumb ring from my 2V DEG bari...it's the same part number listed on the Dynasty website though.) Everything on it looks production, but I have wondered why my horn was different than the one pictured on the Dynasty site...I just figured it was a later model. Here's the only pic I had handy, from when I had it apart for cleaning. You can see the "handle", and kinda the plate. If you have an inside line on the horn designs, or would like other pics or anything else, just ask...BTW, I went to Kantsul's unveiling in 1990 of their Contra Grande prototype - it had a 4th valve horizontal that you played with your left hand, and the pinky ring would've broken your finger on a vigorous horns up/down. Here's my DEG 5/4 4V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussglassman Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 I would love to know if my horn is a custom job, or just maybe a later design. Mine is great for marching - balance is perfect (it's sometimes easier to leave it balanced on my shoulder, no hands, than it is to set it down). Balance is good enough that I can spin it up if I want. It has the tubing bent for a perfect hand-hold and a reinforced plate where it hits the shoulder. The thumb ring I have is attached to the tuning slide as a Tune Any Note type feature (I have the chromed thumb ring from my 2V DEG bari...it's the same part number listed on the Dynasty website though.) Everything on it looks production, but I have wondered why my horn was different than the one pictured on the Dynasty site...I just figured it was a later model.Here's the only pic I had handy, from when I had it apart for cleaning. You can see the "handle", and kinda the plate. If you have an inside line on the horn designs, or would like other pics or anything else, just ask...BTW, I went to Kantsul's unveiling in 1990 of their Contra Grande prototype - it had a 4th valve horizontal that you played with your left hand, and the pinky ring would've broken your finger on a vigorous horns up/down. Here's my DEG 5/4 4V. That is definitely the production horn. Sorry to dispute you, just seemed odd that it would have been produced so long ago. Do you know what year it was built? Also, was the "thumb ring" your own addition, or was it built on the original horn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeme70 Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 That is definitely the production horn. Sorry to dispute you, just seemed odd that it would have been produced so long ago. Do you know what year it was built? Also, was the "thumb ring" your own addition, or was it built on the original horn? Didn't mean to confuse things, but the guy with the 16 year old horn was someone else...I just kinda jumped in later on in the thread... No idea when mine was built - I *think* that it came to me by way of Madison Scouts, but I'm not sure of that. When I got the horn, it had the square slot for a thumbring, but didn't have the hardware. I looked online at the DEG parts list, and the part # for the contra and their 2v baritone were the same, so I took the ring and set screw off my bari and put it on the contra. The thumb ring isn't the most useful thing - it isn't really a structural component, and it kinda flops around a bit, but it does locate my thumb, and as long as I'm at factory tuning (all the way in...), it works as a decent place to kinda grip. The serial # is 127xx (don't know if actual numbers are a good thing to post...), and it has the Willson valve cluster. I got it 3-4 years ago, and it was in really good shape at the time, so I don't think that it's any more than 6-7 years old...could be way off on that though. I haven't been able to find a database anywhere that has a listing of DEG serial numbers like other manufacturers do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFr3aK Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 I hear that the cavaliers are going up to 80 horns too...Anyone know if this is just a rumor or is there any truth to this? Cavies are marching 16, but the sounds they are producing is the same as the 12 they've been marching for years. They look like they'd be loud, but alas.... /sigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussglassman Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 Cavies are marching 16, but the sounds they are producing is the same as the 12 they've been marching for years. They look like they'd be loud, but alas.... /sigh rediculous...this isnt college marching band?!?! Go back to 10 and just teach them how to play. I swear, instructors are getting so lazy these days. Rather than TEACH your kids how to play, just add in bass guitars and double the size of your tuba line so you can have 8 or so "strong" players and 8 or so people carrying horns LOL. I'm sure these oversized tuba lines all had to audition, but its just stupid IMO to have that many horns. If you want the same volume you had back in 'the day,' go back to the horns that produced that sound instead of faking it with these band instruments and adding more and more and more people. Its just going to get dirtier and dirtier...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruckner8 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) rediculous...this isnt college marching band?!?! Go back to 10 and just teach them how to play. I swear, instructors are getting so lazy these days. Rather than TEACH your kids how to play, just add in bass guitars and double the size of your tuba line so you can have 8 or so "strong" players and 8 or so people carrying horns LOL. I'm sure these oversized tuba lines all had to audition, but its just stupid IMO to have that many horns. If you want the same volume you had back in 'the day,' go back to the horns that produced that sound instead of faking it with these band instruments and adding more and more and more people. Its just going to get dirtier and dirtier...... WHOA, chill man. Hornlines have gotten bigger...have ya noticed? Now, had you said "Go back to 10 [and make the hornlines smaller]" then I wouldn't have given your rant a second thought. Have you also noticed that some drum corps drill writers don't know how to stage the tubas, or they just don't care? That they just want 80 hornline "dots" on the field, treating contra no different than trumpet, regardless of acoustics and human hearing? Did you notice the sound of Carolina Crown last year? Apparently, some "lazy instructors" at world-class Cavies, Phantom, and Bluecoats kind of liked it. Cadets wanted 16 as well, but couldn't get enough qualified people. Have you thought that maybe...just maybe...these corps HAVE used the proper audition process, and the players are all qualified? Cadets [edit: mistakenly said Crown at first] could've forced the number, but didn't. Bloo is still carrying an alternate! (17 tubas on roster) You're likely to get your wish, however, with the increased role of the synth as low-end proxy. It's happening all over the West Coast right now. SCV (12 tubas) and BD (12 tubas) absolutely rely on the low end of the synth (sounds good, too, just sayin'), with BK (12) and Bluecoats (16) much less so. Bloo has some good low-end synth moments, but with the 16 tubas, and qualified designers, they'll get the best of all worlds: Awesome power from both Tubas AND Synth. I'm sorry your experience has made you think that every tuba line is 1/2 tubas and 1/2 schmucks. "It ain't necessarily so." Your logic that BITD instruction was good, so 10 players was "enough" kind of contradicts the 1/2 players, 1/2 schmucks argument too. It's entirely possible that instruction today is the same (very good), and the quality of the membership is the same (very good), and bigger hornlines need bigger tuba sections. It's that simple. Edited July 1, 2009 by Bruckner8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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