Hornlines: How much is too much?

[trumpetcam]

I think it would be easy for us to pick out any year of these top hornlines and say BD blank year and Phantom Blank year were not as good. We also have to realize that talent does play into the question.

When I listen to corps like BD 86, Vanguard 99, Cadets 07, Phantom 08, I can hear a talent level that just can't always be taught in one season. Yes, there are great teachers in DCI, but a lot of it does come down to the amount of original talent you get. Just ask the great teachers at Pioneer.

I think Phantom 08 was significantly different from past Phantom years in terms of talent. Yes they had a great new caption head (Chip Crotts) who obviously brought some great new concepts to the table and combined with JD's talents made for their best hornline in many, many years. Yes they had a great show and yes the talent was as strong as it has ever been. Same reason why Crown has continued to grow with such a great brass staff since Matt got on board. And same reason why BD has still been great even though Wayne has stepped away. Great teaching from John Meehan and his staff and great talent.

I too find it sad that people chose to use terms such as "gross" and "crass" when discussing a top hornline like Phantom. I could sit here and say the Cavies are "colorless" in their approach and play with no emotion, but that would not be fair to the 72 talented players in that line. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. But stop trying to convince everyone else of your opinions. Besides, the judges seem to know a bit and its no surprise PR has had a top 3 hornline every year since 03.

Its the same conversation I have anytime I am on a gig about preferred sounds. Some of you are probably the guys that wince when you hear a great lead player cut through a big band and think, "his sound is just too bright and edgy." It's called what's appropriate for the right gig. An orchestral trumpet player would never try to sound like a lead player, and vice versa. different styles , different bags.

So whether your "bag" is BD, Crown,Phantom,Cadets,etc., try laying off the kids who are busting their ### by talking about how "gross" and "obnoxious" you think they play. They deserve better, and just because you can't and don't understand the brass philosophy of their particular corps, its not a reason to bash them.

Now, let's all go and enjoy all these awesome hornlines once the DVD and CD comes out! Count me in!

[Leland]

So whether your "bag" is BD, Crown,Phantom,Cadets,etc., try laying off the kids who are busting their ### by talking about how "gross" and "obnoxious" you think they play. They deserve better, and just because you can't and don't understand the brass philosophy of their particular corps, its not a reason to bash them.

Yup. Talent comes and goes, but ultimately, the hornline will only play what the staff wants them to play.

[Slow Adam]

Wrong. It's science. Sound waves vibrating at the same exact frequency resonate louder than waves vibrating at slightly different frequencies than one another.

Sound waves at the exact same frequency have the theoretical possibility of altogether canceling each other out, too. As I have always said when this argument comes up - If a brass staff can teach their kids to play in tune AND in phase, I will be truly impressed. Until then, IMO, more volume is achieved by givin'er out of tune than by playing quieter, but perfectly in tune.

[mn trumpter guy]

I think it would be easy for us to pick out any year of these top hornlines and say BD blank year and Phantom Blank year were not as good. We also have to realize that talent does play into the question.

When I listen to corps like BD 86, Vanguard 99, Cadets 07, Phantom 08, I can hear a talent level that just can't always be taught in one season. Yes, there are great teachers in DCI, but a lot of it does come down to the amount of original talent you get. Just ask the great teachers at Pioneer.

I think Phantom 08 was significantly different from past Phantom years in terms of talent. Yes they had a great new caption head (Chip Crotts) who obviously brought some great new concepts to the table and combined with JD's talents made for their best hornline in many, many years. Yes they had a great show and yes the talent was as strong as it has ever been. Same reason why Crown has continued to grow with such a great brass staff since Matt got on board. And same reason why BD has still been great even though Wayne has stepped away. Great teaching from John Meehan and his staff and great talent.

I too find it sad that people chose to use terms such as "gross" and "crass" when discussing a top hornline like Phantom. I could sit here and say the Cavies are "colorless" in their approach and play with no emotion, but that would not be fair to the 72 talented players in that line. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. But stop trying to convince everyone else of your opinions. Besides, the judges seem to know a bit and its no surprise PR has had a top 3 hornline every year since 03.

Its the same conversation I have anytime I am on a gig about preferred sounds. Some of you are probably the guys that wince when you hear a great lead player cut through a big band and think, "his sound is just too bright and edgy." It's called what's appropriate for the right gig. An orchestral trumpet player would never try to sound like a lead player, and vice versa. different styles , different bags.

So whether your "bag" is BD, Crown,Phantom,Cadets,etc., try laying off the kids who are busting their ### by talking about how "gross" and "obnoxious" you think they play. They deserve better, and just because you can't and don't understand the brass philosophy of their particular corps, its not a reason to bash them.

Now, let's all go and enjoy all these awesome hornlines once the DVD and CD comes out! Count me in!

Absolutely right about the returning talent bit. I concur with you absolutely about different strokes are called for in different situations; I made this just to discuss what people prefer, and get a measure- just curious. I love discussing pedagogy and philosophy.

Being one of the kids that is busting my ###... I appreciate this last paragraph a lot, and never meant to show disrespect for the effort level anyone is putting out- I just wanted to know more about what people prefer, and see different points of view on the techniques.

Minnesota Trumpet Guy,

I am an alumnus of UW Eau Claire (Bachelor of Science 1962) and I played trumpet with both the Bluegold marching and symphony bands in the late 50's - early 60's. So, it pains me to disagree with the premise of your thread. To me, the very essence of drum corps is a loud, emotional, in-your-face brass. That is why I am a long-time fan of the Madison Scouts.

By the way, I noticed that last year the UW-Eau Claire Bluegold symphony band played its semester-break concert in St. Peter's Square in Rome just prior to the Pope's New Year's day blessing. I remember my semester-break concert (January 1960?) was in Winnipeg, Canada, where it was 40 degrees below zero.

Vic Russell

Don't worry about it at all- that is what I love about forums- it gives us the chance to discuss and disagree without hard feelings (and actually it was the marching band in Rome). As for the Madison Scouts, I am good friends with one of their trumpets who also is in the marching band here- we both teach the rest of the band how to march, along with a guy from Cap Sound. I too appreciate them, and I am PUMPED that I get to have them on my first finals DVD (haven't been able to buy more than the CD in years past... $$$)

P.S. -40 is very cold, and I sympathize (last year it got to -55 with wind chill, especially on the bridge... brr.)

On another note (still related to hornlines) does anyone happen to know the record for loud (in terms of decibels? thanks!

[JayM]

That talent level is certainly hard to come by - but ill disagree that they were really in tune. Most gino hornlines sound like they are 'close enough' to being in tune, without ever actually being in tune. I believe they still use that old Downey 'mark' system, where everyone just puts their tuning slide in the same place and goes for it. I saw them at warmups once and they only tuned 4 people - 1 per section. Obviously it's effective to some degree, but its no cavies 02.....ftr....i prefer it that way

The Cavaliers haven't used a tuner since at least 2000.

[mn trumpter guy]

The Cavaliers haven't used a tuner since at least 2000.

tuners don't account for the tuning of the pit- when brass get sharper due to weather, the pit gets flatter.

not using a tuner doesn't mean they are out of tune.

that is what ears are for.

[Leland]

tuners don't account for the tuning of the pit- when brass get sharper due to weather, the pit gets flatter.

Tuners can be calibrated to match the pit (or at least get as close as possible).

The last season I had a chance to do so, we recalibrated the tuner every time we could. After the pit unloaded from the truck, I'd wait about fifteen minutes for the keyboards to acclimate, then go up and sample some notes -- usually on the vibraphone since its longer sustain meant that it accompanied the horns more effectively.

In hotter weather, the pit ALWAYS went sharper. I had the tuner up to A=446 or 447 on some days, then down as low as 436 on cool days.

The neat part was that we never ran out of room on the horns' tuning slides. A couple years earlier, we tried sticking with 442 on a hot day, and our French horns couldn't pull out far enough -- so they ended up being sharp for the whole show. However, as we learned later, the calibration to match the pit meant that the tuner was asking for a sharper pitch in hotter weather, which also meant that the horns' slides didn't need to be pulled out very much -- if at all.

Anyway, what we were doing was the basic premise behind the notch tuning mentioned earlier. If we were to document the weather conditions each time by carrying a mini weather gauge (including humidity), we could build up a chart that shows where the pit tends to wander and how the horns need to be adjusted. Then, we could recalibrate the tuner without being anywhere near the pit. After that, and if each instrument voice is using a standard mouthpiece, AND if each individual instrument was also play-tested by ONE player and marked with notches according to a tuner (one of my friends was playing the contras when Bluecoats did this in '96), you can tune one player per section and have them tell the others how many notches to move in or out.

In the group I'm with now, we don't use notches on the horns, and we still show a tuner to everybody about half of the time. But, we adjust the tuner as needed for the weather, often getting close enough just by estimating what we'd need. My goal for when we use a tuner is to calibrate it in the middle of what everyone's playing; their ears and instruments are already pretty close, and nobody has to drastically adjust anything. It's easier, and it sounds better, than forcing everyone to move twenty or thirty cents just to match A=442.

USING A TUNER IS NEVER A SUBSTITUTE FOR TUNING BY EAR. However, unless the players experience what it really sounds like, they'll never know what to listen for -- and the proper use of a tuner helps speed the process quite a bit.

One more thing...

We found that it was easier to tune up -- and stay in tune -- if we kept all of the horns either in or out of the sun during warmups. If we knew we were going to be performing before the sun went down, we would do warmups in the sun; if we were going on under the lights, we'd warm up in the shade. We weren't stupid about it when it was sunny -- we'd often set the instruments down in the sunlight and take a breather in the shade. But, if half of the horns were shaded and half were in the sun, and if we tuned them all the same, they skewed out of tune later when they got into the same environment.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Leland

[golfman1198]

Goof, record for loud is '93 Star followed by '06 Phantom?

[Leland]

Goof, record for loud is '93 Star followed by '06 Phantom?

The last time I asked that question (back after the '96 season.. lol), '96 BD was the loudest that I had heard. However, I was told by others that '86 BD was even louder than that... but that Spirit 1980, after Jim Ott passed away on tour, was the loudest ever.

If we're including senior corps, and barring the 400-member special parade corps that did college bowl games and Macy's parades in the late 80's-early 90's, Renegades '04 was one of the two or three loudest hornlines I've ever seen.

[salad315]

The Cavaliers haven't used a tuner since at least 2000.

Thats nice....what does that have to do with anything. I said a corps like cavies 2002 is more in tune than a corps like cadets 2007...for the reasons I listed. I didnt say how they got that way. I havent watched a cavies horn warmup since 2003...how would I know anyway...