Elite Corps - Is there a limit?

[shaners]

I think this conversation would be better interpreted if we excluded the who is "elite" part. This is highly subjective.

The way I understand what the OP is asking is this; Is there a limit to how many corps can compete for the title? As unlikely as it seems, no.

Unlike sports, one corp does not directly effect the other, and there for, all can be in the same competing 'area' of score.

How many corps will we see legitimately compete for a top spot in one year? The past two years have shown 7 corps in a close spread.

It seems we might have 8 this year, assuming that each corp maintains their level of performance and design.

I think what has contributed to this is common show design. Many corps, especially the top 7, all seem to be on the same page, or at least in the same book, as one another. After the success of Spartacus last year, I would not be surprised to see more corps with very similar show design.

We will have to wait and see, especially since corps seem to be taking an ambiguous approach to how they release show information lately.

If the level of achievement stays consistent in each corp, (which is a big 'if') AND corps continue to have similar show design, then the possibilities of competition are endless.......

[sday88]

I honestly think that a corps like Bluecoats (a corps that is "new" to Top 6) lives/dies by the following two things:

* consistent high placement, both over-all and in captions

* staff

It's obvious that Bluecoats' talent pool and placement jumped significantly in percussion when the Cavaliers staff came after the 05 season. Their percussion was what, Top 3, and talent that was going to Rockford, Rosemont, Cadets, etc. were going to Bluecoats. The same holds true when it comes to placement: if the corps is competing for Top 3, the highly talented membership will come. If they drop back to sub-Top 6, the higher tier talent will go elsewhere: just ask Glassmen or Boston.

While some people might place the spike in placement/scores to show design, I think it should be noted that Bluecoats broke into Top 5 (and 4th place) with what I would consider a "typical" Bluecoats style show. After the changed their design up a bit, they dropped out of Top 6 (Criminal) before fighting their way back into 6th place with last year's Boxer show.

Now, I think that their music design has been pretty consistent horn-wise, and whomever is teaching their brass the last half-decade or so deserves a TON of credit for the advancement of the corps.

But in general, I think a corps like Bluecoats is dependent upon placement and staff to attract the type of members that will bring them top Top 4 or higher.

You completely missed my point. Never mind.

[BRASSO]

I think this conversation would be better interpreted if we excluded the who is "elite" part. This is highly subjective.

The way I understand what the OP is asking is this; Is there a limit to how many corps can compete for the title? As unlikely as it seems, no.

Unlike sports, one corp does not directly effect the other, and there for, all can be in the same competing 'area' of score.

How many corps will we see legitimately compete for a top spot in one year? The past two years have shown 7 corps in a close spread.

It seems we might have 8 this year, assuming that each corp maintains their level of performance and design.

I think what has contributed to this is common show design. Many corps, especially the top 7, all seem to be on the same page, or at least in the same book, as one another. After the success of Spartacus last year, I would not be surprised to see more corps with very similar show design.

We will have to wait and see, especially since corps seem to be taking an ambiguous approach to how they release show information lately.

If the level of achievement stays consistent in each corp, (which is a big 'if') AND corps continue to have similar show design, then the possibilities of competition are endless.......

Good thread topic..... good post. By the time we get to Finals Week, we usually are down to at most 3 or 4 Corps that have a legitimate shot at winning, not 7 Corps. Corps that are at " Elite Status " ( Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavs ) are ALWAYS in the hunt by then. Some Years, all three of these Corps will be in the mix, but rarely if ever, is one pf these 3 Corps not in the mix for the title come Finals Week.

BD are rarely not in the top 4 ranking come Finals Week. We are talking 35 years here too. By contrast, The Bluecoats and Crown ( for instance ) consider it a winning season for them when they MAKE the top 3 or 4 in ANY given year. It is a disservice to the accomplishments of these 3 Elite Corps and a disregard to history to assign Elite Status to Corps that havn't finished anywhere close yet to this level. The Bluecoats or Crown would be thrilled to come in 2nd some year. For the Blue Devils ( like the Yankees, Celtics, LA Lakers, etc ) 2nd place is not exactly what they had in mind in preseason. And THAT is why the Cadets, Cavs, and BD are set apart as " Elites ", and Corps in 4th to 7th in any given year, even if they are there every year, are not " Elite Corps " in my opinion.

[snare36]

I agree, "elite" is subjective in this sport. This activity has advanced considerably in the past fifteen years as more corps consistently become a force to be reckoned with. Each organization is cyclical. There will be on and off years. (Though some are more prone to that than others) There has never been a time when so many drum corps are so competent as they are now. hands down. At DCI in Pasadena I was completely blown out of the water at how incredible each of the top 7 corps were. They were entertaining, possessed excellence at a high level, were emotional, musical, and were designed and produced by people with creative minds and ultra talent. That night I saw at least 7 "elite" corps.

[cowtown]

Not what the OP was going for but I noticed the ‘elite corps’ were a little less elite with those extra bodies on the field, it really showed up in the guards but elsewhere too. Shows just were not as clean at finals last year as they had been in the recent years. I do miss the precision, the clean-ness of the shows from yester-years. I’m not very forgiving of all the tics I see, tells me demand is too high and there is a strange set of judging priorities going on

Crown was pretty clean last year thougth, they maxed out that show, they could have handled more demand

[BRASSO]

I agree, "elite" is subjective in this sport. This activity has advanced considerably in the past fifteen years as more corps consistently become a force to be reckoned with. Each organization is cyclical. There will be on and off years. (Though some are more prone to that than others) There has never been a time when so many drum corps are so competent as they are now. hands down. At DCI in Pasadena I was completely blown out of the water at how incredible each of the top 7 corps were. They were entertaining, possessed excellence at a high level, were emotional, musical, and were designed and produced by people with creative minds and ultra talent. That night I saw at least 7 "elite" corps.

And I do agree that the term " Elite Corps " is a subjective and personal thing. Heck, judging these Corps is also highly subjective as well. If we have a broadened interpretation of what constitutes " Elite " then I might broaden the number of Corps as " Elite " to it's historical and conventional interpretation which usually meant " if you make Finals ".... TOP 12.

By this more broadened standard, we find that Corps today in the 8th to 12th placement position are as good if not better than Corps that filled these placement positions in earlier eras. Additionally, Corps that finish ( say) 18h or 19th in DCI today may not be quite able to say with a level of certainty that they were better than Corps that finished in these placement positions in earlier era's ( because of the sheer number of Corps in earlier era's competing for placement positions 18th, 19th, ie... Top 20 .)

My " Elite Corps " number still remains..... 3. ( BD, Cadets, Cavs ). It is based on these 3 Corps years of success at the highest level and constituting a large historical framework.

But with a more broadened interpretation we are using, and with a smaller historical context, then I'd go with the TOP 12 of today as the " Elite Corps "

Edited June 9, 2009 by BRASSO

[perc2100]

I think at best there are four 'elite' corps in DCI, and probably not even that many any given year. It seems like in any given year there MIGHT be three corps with a legit chance at winning. I can't remember any year where there were four corps legitimately in the hunt for the Championship, and usually there are only two. I think the current list of elite corps:

1) Cavaliers

2) Blue Devils

3) Cadets

4) Phantom Regiment

Obviously in any given year, one of those corps might not be 'elite' (i.e. Cadets NEVER seemed to threaten for a Top 3 in either 08 or 06). However, given both current and over-all corps history, these four corps have earned the right to be considered elite

These corps have all:

* won DCI recently

* placed in the Top 3/4 consistently

* placed in the Top 3 and won captions Finals night

As much as I've enjoyed Crown, Bluecoats, and SCV recently (I'm a life-long SCV fan and have never not liked a show of theirs), there has not been a season recently where coming into semifinals I think either of those three corps have a strong chance of winning DCI. Heck, I've NEVER thought that in regards to Bluecoats and Crown. That might change this year, but until a corps has either consistently placed in Top 3 AND won captions Finals Night (or won a Championship), I don't think they can even be considered 'elite.' And even though SCV and Madison Scouts are in that club, they have not won a Championship in a decade (SCV) or more (20 + years for Scouts) or placed Top 3 in awhile (SCV = 2004 last time Top 3, Scouts = 1988).

[Willie85]

Yet more number crunching: Out of curiosity, I averaged the placements for the last five years and it seems, to me anyway, that a clear separation shakes out:

BD - 2.4

HNC - 3.4

Cavs -2

PR - 3

SCV - 5.8

CC - 6.4

BC - 5.6

Now my own idea of elite is based on 25+ yrs of corps watching -- but if you're talking recent, consistent high placement, there's a remarkably clear break between the top four above and the rest of the pack.

[Bob J]

I think it all depends on our collective definition of "elite corps". I looked at the number of corps that scored within 3 points of the winner at finals over the history of DCI, since I think those corps realistically had a shot at winning those years. I noticed some interesting trends:

1) there were always 2 to 5 "elite" corps. never more, never less.

2) The "late '80s-mid '90s" trend becomes obvious. Actually it lasted from 1988 until 2001, where there were either 4 or 5 "elite" corps (with the exception of 1997 which had 3). Perhaps coincidentally, Star of Indiana's stretch as an elite corps was during this time, and Phantom was "elite" 6 times in an 8 year stretch during that period.

3) the "elite" corps change over the years, but BD has been an "elite" corps every year but 3 since 1976. The Cadets have been "elite" every year but 6 since 1982, and the Cavies have been "elite" every year but 2 sice 1988.

4) SCV seems to blow hot and cold. From '72 to '91 they maintained "elite" status except for 3 years. Then they dropped out until '97, then a 5 year stretch of "eliteness". Since then, only 1 "elite" year.

5) Phantom, again hot and cold. Since '77 three different stretches of "eliteness", the current one, 3 out of the last 4 years after 8 years of just being great, not "elite".

6) I personally think it is a little early to be classifying Crown as "elite" just yet. Granted, they were in the "elite" class last year, but that were their first. They are now in the "1-year elite club" with Blue Stars, Troopers, Muchachos, Bridgemen, and Spirit. I personally expect them to spend many more years as an "elite" corps, but am trying to put a historic perspective on things.

[Bob J]

And

7) There have been only 5 Corps that have been "elite" corps more than 10 times in the history of DCI. Those are:

BD - 30

SCV - 23

Cadets - 22

Cavies - 19

Phantom - 15

And in the past 10 years, only the Cavies have made the cut every single year.