Saw Synthesizers for the First Time in DCI Tonight

[Liam]

No Liam. I got it. And my comments were not directed at you personally. I guess I just need to use the other reply tool sometimes so I'm not quoting a specific person. My bad. No harm intended.

But, if amplification has little cogent reasoning behind its implementation...then...it becomes the gateway drug to the synthehol, yes?

No worries, Tom -- it's just one of my hot buttons when folks assign meaning to my posts beyond the words written. I choose my words very carefully here (usually, anyway) and I don't like it when folks add their own slant to my rather direct words.

Anyway, though, as to your 2nd paragraph: I'm not saying that amplification has little cogent reasoning, just questioning the reasoning of that one particular claim. Maybe that has the same ultimate effect in your eyes, but I always desire to deal with facts and truthfulness and I find that sometimes scraping away the false arguments makes the true arguments on the same side all the stronger, that's all

[Liam]

Check out Thom Hannum's "Championship Concepts for Marching Percussion" on what exactly proper technique is in the outdoor venue. Amps are NOT used to make the instruments louder, but merely to increase the amount of body of sound that gets lost 30 yards away from the keys.

Sadly, some corps use awful technique (just talk to kids in the pit. If they have to ice down their wrists after each day of rehearsal or they're developing Carpel Tunnel, it's wrong technique). And they use amps just to increase the awful, sharp sound that's coming off the keys.

And marimbas CAN be heard outdoors, they just lose a lot of sound body/quality without amplification. It would be like a singer standing in front of the corps. You could probably hear them, but the resultant sound is not great. Amps make them great.

Not sure I understand your point here. How does the technique in Mr. Hannum's book differ from basic concert marimba technique?

What's the difference between "louder" and "body of sound"? Basically, aren't you just saying that playing a concert instrument outdoors requires a different technique to be heard more than 30 yards away -- namely playing it louder? Again, how does this differ from any other instrument out there?

[Josiahsop08]

no matter what no one will be happy....Why restrict creativity(seems counter productive)? Let them play and leave them alone! This gives more kids the chance to March DCI, a few years ago that would be thought to be impossible. This could also possibly allow alternates to get in the show, nothing hurts worse than invest all that time and never get to see the field. :

Edited June 18, 2009 by Josiahsop08

[JamMan]

but...these guys are experts at this stuff...we kept being told so.

yet, we keep seeing what you say is poor writing.

so...which is it? because i still dont see heights lowered. i see softer mallets, but jack #### in the way of technique really changing.

These guys CAN be experts, but in the same way published authors are experts. They may write dumb stories that are just a waste of paper, but they still get published somehow.

Also, do you have any specific examples of no lower heights, because I see lower heights and a more varied mallet selection.

Not sure what you meant here - obviously, amplification makes the sound louder, or it would not be "amplification".

I'm guessing you meant to say that the intent is to provide the same end-product volume from the pit as we had prior to 2004, with amps allowing softer strokes and/or softer mallets in the process. I have heard that contention before, and that may have been the intent of some at first....but not anymore. In 2007, there was a definite step change in the volume level and relative balance of amplified pits vs. the rest of the corps, indicative of a distinct change in philosophy in the judge/instructor community.

I still don't understand this aversion to "doubling" parts. Brass and field percussion players do this all the time, and in fact, it is their ability to play in synch that is a much-admired skill in this activity. Many other ensembles have parts doubled. What's wrong with that?

I meant amplification isn't used JUST to make things louder. They (should) effect the technique used by the front ensemble. And not just by using SOFTER mallets, but by using a larger variety of mallets for a greater pallet of sounds.

Doubling parts is simply a way to make a certain line stand out. BUT, if 20 mellos played the same part the whole, you'd get a very thin body of sound. Sure, at some points in the music it's ok, but you're not completely utilizing all of your mellos. And if a battery had their quads and basses play the exact same thing the snares play, I'd be very angry that I wasted my life watching that. My point is that you have a wide, WIDE ranger of notes in each marimba. And with 4 marimbas (or 5), you should give players 2-5 something, ANYTHING, that will contribute to the corps. Many front ensembles fall victim to a thin book. And as such, should not be given full credit.

I also don't mean every person should play something different. That leads to a soundscape with no lines sticking out. It's a specific effect that is used sometimes music (off the top of my head, see Cadets '08 near the end of the first song. Each keyboard player has a different part. It's pretty cool).

[Liam]

I meant amplification isn't used JUST to make things louder. They (should) effect the technique used by the front ensemble. And not just by using SOFTER mallets, but by using a larger variety of mallets for a greater pallet of sounds.

Doubling parts is simply a way to make a certain line stand out. BUT, if 20 mellos played the same part the whole, you'd get a very thin body of sound. Sure, at some points in the music it's ok, but you're not completely utilizing all of your mellos. And if a battery had their quads and basses play the exact same thing the snares play, I'd be very angry that I wasted my life watching that. My point is that you have a wide, WIDE ranger of notes in each marimba. And with 4 marimbas (or 5), you should give players 2-5 something, ANYTHING, that will contribute to the corps. Many front ensembles fall victim to a thin book. And as such, should not be given full credit.

I also don't mean every person should play something different. That leads to a soundscape with no lines sticking out. It's a specific effect that is used sometimes music (off the top of my head, see Cadets '08 near the end of the first song. Each keyboard player has a different part. It's pretty cool).

I get that you're saying it's better (cooler) for the 5 marimba players to play 5 different, complementary things and the amps help achieve that because you don't need all 5 to play the same thing just to be heard. I get that.

But that wasn't my question. My question was (and is) that aren't you just saying that you want the marimba players to be able to use concert-style technique and the amps allow them to be heard this way and you're calling this "proper technique"? How is this different from the trumpet line, which DO double up on parts to be heard? Sure there are 25 of them playing 5 parts, rather than 5 marimba players playing 1 part in our example, but they're still not using concert hall technique to be heard. They are using a different technique and doubling up parts as appropriate to have them be heard outside. Sometimes trumpet lines use mutes for a different sound pallet (the kinda equivalent of using softer mallets), but they make sure that there are enough of them and solo enough to be heard. So why should the mallet "pallet of sound" techniques be immune from having to adjust to outside?

Again, don't take this particular argument of mine to be an argument against amps necessarily. I'm just making an argument about this particular rationale for amps -- that amps allow for "proper" technique. No -- amps allow for concert technique to be used outdoors.

See what I'm saying...?

Edited June 18, 2009 by Liam

[audiodb]

no matter what no one will be happy....Why restrict creativity(seems counter productive)? Let them play and leave them alone! This gives more kids the chance to March DCI, a few years ago that would be thought to be impossible. This could also possibly allow alternates to get in the show, nothing hurts worse than invent all that time and never get to see the field. :

Actually, a DCI corps can only field 150 kids. Using amps, electronics, or brass in any key....they still can only field 150.

[Jeff Ream]

no matter what no one will be happy....Why restrict creativity(seems counter productive)? Let them play and leave them alone! This gives more kids the chance to March DCI, a few years ago that would be thought to be impossible. This could also possibly allow alternates to get in the show, nothing hurts worse than invent all that time and never get to see the field. :

true creativity comes from not changing the rules to be creative, but actually working within set limits.

[Jeff Ream]

These guys CAN be experts, but in the same way published authors are experts. They may write dumb stories that are just a waste of paper, but they still get published somehow.

Also, do you have any specific examples of no lower heights, because I see lower heights and a more varied mallet selection.

sure. pretty much everyone of the 18-23 world class corps and the few opens I have seen live over the last 5 years. I actually see better technique for indoor than outdoor.

I meant amplification isn't used JUST to make things louder. They (should) effect the technique used by the front ensemble. And not just by using SOFTER mallets, but by using a larger variety of mallets for a greater pallet of sounds.

thank you for saying should, not is

Doubling parts is simply a way to make a certain line stand out. BUT, if 20 mellos played the same part the whole, you'd get a very thin body of sound. Sure, at some points in the music it's ok, but you're not completely utilizing all of your mellos. And if a battery had their quads and basses play the exact same thing the snares play, I'd be very angry that I wasted my life watching that. My point is that you have a wide, WIDE ranger of notes in each marimba. And with 4 marimbas (or 5), you should give players 2-5 something, ANYTHING, that will contribute to the corps. Many front ensembles fall victim to a thin book. And as such, should not be given full credit.

yet that credit is given and we are told that it's the state of the art. but, we were told this wouldn't be the case.

I also don't mean every person should play something different. That leads to a soundscape with no lines sticking out. It's a specific effect that is used sometimes music (off the top of my head, see Cadets '08 near the end of the first song. Each keyboard player has a different part. It's pretty cool).

and yet we rarely ever see it. so you yourself just killed all of the rationales for possible arrangements we were told we'd see...5 years after we were told we'd see them

[JamMan]

But that wasn't my question. My question was (and is) that aren't you just saying that you want the marimba players to be able to use concert-style technique and the amps allow them to be heard this way and you're calling this "proper technique"?

I guess I should have been more specific. I don't believe in using concert-style technique outdoors (because that doesn't exist in the front ensemble). I believe in using existing good OUTdoor techniques.

sure. pretty much everyone of the 18-23 world class corps and the few opens I have seen live over the last 5 years. I actually see better technique for indoor than outdoor.

It's because in indoor, the judges actually know what a marimba is. I touched on it a few pages ago, but the judges in DCI are really clueless when it comes to the front ensemble.

Corps I consider to have improved technique post-amp: The Cadets, The Cavaliers, Blue Devils, Madison Scouts, Blue Knights

Corps that still play with improper technique: Carolina Crown, Bluecoats

Corps that are halfway between the two: Boston Crusaders, Phantom Regiment

I could go for days on some of these corps, but I'll spare you all the mumbo-jumbo.

[Jeff Ream]

It's because in indoor, the judges actually know what a marimba is. I touched on it a few pages ago, but the judges in DCI are really clueless when it comes to the front ensemble.

Corps I consider to have improved technique post-amp: The Cadets, The Cavaliers, Blue Devils, Madison Scouts, Blue Knights

Corps that still play with improper technique: Carolina Crown, Bluecoats

Corps that are halfway between the two: Boston Crusaders, Phantom Regiment

I could go for days on some of these corps, but I'll spare you all the mumbo-jumbo.

all dci judges are clueless. hmm...dont some judge WGI and teach in WGI?

oh yeah they do. oops

corps i consider using better mallet choices...pretty much all. corps i still seeing beating the #### out of the keys that are amped...pretty much all.