Bob J Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Well, if that were the case they would have to design specifically loud and durable marimbas for field use, which would absolutely affect their resale-ability for use in the thousands of local concert band programs that are buying up used drum corps percussion equipment today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) This one's been bugging me for a while whenever this kind of discussion comes up ...What does "when played properly" mean? It's presented (I assume) as meaning when played as you would in a concert situation. But what other instrument on the field is played "properly" by concert standards? Certainly not snares -- I've never seen a snare drummer in an orchestra pound away with thick sticks like we do on the field. How about trumpet? Certainly they're not using the same "proper" technique as the concert player. Etc, etc. Not a big deal, but this always bugged me about the rationale for needing pit amps -- that it will allow for "proper technique". Proper technique is defined, in part, by the application -- there's concert hall technique for every instrument and field technique for every instrument. Why are marimbas suddenly exempt from having different techniques for different uses? Just curious ... (and this is coming from a percussionist who has played both concert and field marimba ... ) (Edit: maybe you were being sarcastic with the italics part and are saying basically the same thing as me .... still, this has been bugging me for a while, so I figured your post was as good a place as any to get it off my chest .... ) Excellent post agree 100% By the rationale they are applying you could make the argument to mic every instrument on the field just so everyone can play like they're in an indoor orchestra. Edited June 17, 2009 by BozzlyB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Excellent post agree 100% By the rationale they are applying you could make the argument to mic every instrument on the field just so everyone can play like they're in an indoor orchestra. Exactly -- that's been my confusion on this rationale from the beginning ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.morgus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Well, if that were the case they would have to design specifically loud and durable marimbas for field use, which would absolutely affect their resale-ability for use in the thousands of local concert band programs that are buying up used drum corps percussion equipment today! And resale is certainly what drum corps is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) so...if we defeat the spurious amplication rationale...which detractors of synths enidently now believe is imperative to the case against synths...well, the synths just go away naturally. I like the direction of this tactic. Let's pull up the old proposals for amplifying the pit. We should be able to pick those apart. Because this equine's deceased remnant of a carcass certainly hasn't taken enough body blows yet. Proceed folks. I await the results of this research. Notice...I have become definitely dispassionate toward this whole issue today. Perhaps just today. Edited June 17, 2009 by Tom Brace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 so...if we defeat the spurious amplication rationale...which detractors of synths enidently now believe is imperative to the case against synths...well, the synths just go away naturally.I like the direction of this tactic. Let's pull up the old proposals for amplifying the pit. We should be able to pick those apart. Because this equine's deceased remnant of a carcass certainly hasn't taken enough body blows yet. Proceed folks. I await the results of this research. Notice...I have become definitely dispassionate toward this whole issue today. Perhaps just today. Tom -- please don't read intent into my posts that aren't there. I've just never been clear on that particular rationale given for pit amps. Has no bearing on any other rationale or even whether or not I support or even care about the rule. Will people use my question for there own nefarious purposes? Maybe -- can't be helped. I just asked an honest question and would appreciate an honest answer/discusiion on its own merits, that's all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 so...if we defeat the spurious amplication rationale...which detractors of synths enidently now believe is imperative to the case against synths...well, the synths just go away naturally.I like the direction of this tactic. Let's pull up the old proposals for amplifying the pit. We should be able to pick those apart. Because this equine's deceased remnant of a carcass certainly hasn't taken enough body blows yet. Proceed folks. I await the results of this research. Notice...I have become definitely dispassionate toward this whole issue today. Perhaps just today. they have been picked apart. multiple times. read every thread on amplification ever on DCP. not that lgoic and facts have helped get it overturned, but often times logic and rules proposals havent always meshed well from the start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 When played properly a marimba's volume can't really compare to a drum or brass line in an open air venue. Hence the need to amplify the sound. Oh, that explains it. They're trying to make one marimba just as loud as a whole drumline or brassline. That's why balance is the way it is now. Seriously, though....what "need" are you talking about? 1. When one bugle wasn't loud enough, we used two. When one snare wasn't loud enough, we used two. When one....well, you get the idea. 2. Why must one marimba produce the same volume as a drumline/brassline? There are instruments that we accept as having less volume or dynamic range (the triangle, for example), and I don't see bands and orchestras all over the globe amplifying them out of some self-defined "need" for them to be heard over a full ensemble's peak volume. 3. If it can't be heard in an open-air venue, perhaps it isn't the most effective choice of equipment for drum corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 so...if we defeat the spurious amplication rationale...which detractors of synths enidently now believe is imperative to the case against synths...well, the synths just go away naturally.I like the direction of this tactic. Let's pull up the old proposals for amplifying the pit. We should be able to pick those apart. Because this equine's deceased remnant of a carcass certainly hasn't taken enough body blows yet. Proceed folks. I await the results of this research. Notice...I have become definitely dispassionate toward this whole issue today. Perhaps just today. #### - he's onto us! Actually, Tom, I'd just like to strip away the spurious rationale of recent rule changes so that people can evaluate future proposals on their real merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamMan Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 "As for major gaffs? The answer is no. You would be EXTREMELY hard pressed to find major gaffs with brass, guard or percussion by finals. " False in all respects. I hear dirty drumlines, poorly-written pit books, overbalanced trumpets, etc. So, if the battery has to adjust sound levels with stick heights, and brass players do what they do to control volume, we have to artificially produce the same in the pit by turning a knob on a mixing board?In that statement lies the difference between pre- and post-amp rules. And y'all think that's OK? Actually, in Pit World, stick heights, velocities, stroke weight are changed. The mixing board is used very very minimally to change the overall volume. This one's been bugging me for a while whenever this kind of discussion comes up ...What does "when played properly" mean? It's presented (I assume) as meaning when played as you would in a concert situation. But what other instrument on the field is played "properly" by concert standards? Certainly not snares -- I've never seen a snare drummer in an orchestra pound away with thick sticks like we do on the field. How about trumpet? Certainly they're not using the same "proper" technique as the concert player. Etc, etc. Not a big deal, but this always bugged me about the rationale for needing pit amps -- that it will allow for "proper technique". Proper technique is defined, in part, by the application -- there's concert hall technique for every instrument and field technique for every instrument. Why are marimbas suddenly exempt from having different techniques for different uses? Just curious ... (and this is coming from a percussionist who has played both concert and field marimba ... ) (Edit: maybe you were being sarcastic with the italics part and are saying basically the same thing as me .... still, this has been bugging me for a while, so I figured your post was as good a place as any to get it off my chest .... ) In other words, with proper air support and stick heights the accoustic players are achieving a wider dynamic range then the amped front ensemble. Check out Thom Hannum's "Championship Concepts for Marching Percussion" on what exactly proper technique is in the outdoor venue. Amps are NOT used to make the instruments louder, but merely to increase the amount of body of sound that gets lost 30 yards away from the keys. Sadly, some corps use awful technique (just talk to kids in the pit. If they have to ice down their wrists after each day of rehearsal or they're developing Carpel Tunnel, it's wrong technique). And they use amps just to increase the awful, sharp sound that's coming off the keys. true. yet we still see so much doubling/tripling of parts, so that argument loses steam That's just the result of a very poorly written book. Shame on those arrangers would cop out using that technique for the whole show. True, doubling/tripling/quadrupling of parts is necessary at some parts (when the hornline/drumline is wailing away or when the part is just so cool), but the whole show should not be a melodic monotony. Well, if that were the case they would have to design specifically loud and durable marimbas for field use, which would absolutely affect their resale-ability for use in the thousands of local concert band programs that are buying up used drum corps percussion equipment today! Yamaha/Adams/Dynasty DO make specifically loud and durable marimbas and the corps and marching bands use them. I guess I don't see your point. 2. Why must one marimba produce the same volume as a drumline/brassline? There are instruments that we accept as having less volume or dynamic range (the triangle, for example), and I don't see bands and orchestras all over the globe amplifying them out of some self-defined "need" for them to be heard over a full ensemble's peak volume.3. If it can't be heard in an open-air venue, perhaps it isn't the most effective choice of equipment for drum corps. One marimba is not as loud as a brassline/drumline, it just has to blend in. Bands and orchestras all over the globe don't amp triangles (and neither do drum corps) because they pierce through. And orchestras are usuallynot so loud that they drown out a keyboard instrument. See "Reflections of Earth" by the London Symphony Orchestra for a great example of how marimba fits in to an orchestra. Then watch Cadets '00 and see how that line is lost without amps. And marimbas CAN be heard outdoors, they just lose a lot of sound body/quality without amplification. It would be like a singer standing in front of the corps. You could probably hear them, but the resultant sound is not great. Amps make them great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.