Jeff Ream Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 true...but remember there is more than just brass factored in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotdogchompa Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 hmmmm. interesting topic on demand as apart of the judging equation especially in Class A. I have to agree with Alan's premise. In the big picture if corps "A" has clean as a whistle , entertaining, yet easy show and corps "b" has a more difficult show but has some fuzz, then according to current standards corps "a" will win. Now throw in corps "c" that has larger membership with fair amount of dirt but more difficulty than both a & b, then it will be a in 1st place, b in 2nd etc. Until "c" gets clean it won't be able to overtake a or b. BUT if they do then they have raised the bar and now a & b have to keep up. In the mean time "c" will have to be happy with the parking lot awards. Now using actual drum corps and numbers. Fusion Core has a large 15 person guard and gets a 130 in prelims. White Sabers has 5 guard and gets a 140. I would think that Fusion would have to be dropping equipment for more than 50% of the time to justify that. Lakeshoremen who have no battery and 7 pit get 99 in ensemble perc. and Sun Devils with 13 battery and 6 pit get 110 (and Sunrisers get 100 and White Sabres get 107). Heck Excelsior got a 104. You can't tell me the SD percussion is that bad. Now Visual is a whole different animal I aggree. If you have a 50 man corps out there with holes here and there marching all kinds of crazy tempos with different marching styles, they are going to lose to a straight line, follow the leader, tempo 110-140 but clean smaller corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Holleran Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Fran, good to read your thoughts. I'm sorry I couldn't be there on the sidelines with you and Barb, as I have so many other years. Ace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 hmmmm. interesting topic on demand as apart of the judging equation especially in Class A. I have to agree with Alan's premise. In the big picture if corps "A" has clean as a whistle , entertaining, yet easy show and corps "b" has a more difficult show but has some fuzz, then according to current standards corps "a" will win. Now throw in corps "c" that has larger membership with fair amount of dirt but more difficulty than both a & b, then it will be a in 1st place, b in 2nd etc. Until "c" gets clean it won't be able to overtake a or b. BUT if they do then they have raised the bar and now a & b have to keep up. In the mean time "c" will have to be happy with the parking lot awards. Now using actual drum corps and numbers. Fusion Core has a large 15 person guard and gets a 130 in prelims. White Sabers has 5 guard and gets a 140. I would think that Fusion would have to be dropping equipment for more than 50% of the time to justify that. Lakeshoremen who have no battery and 7 pit get 99 in ensemble perc. and Sun Devils with 13 battery and 6 pit get 110 (and Sunrisers get 100 and White Sabres get 107). Heck Excelsior got a 104. You can't tell me the SD percussion is that bad. Now Visual is a whole different animal I aggree. If you have a 50 man corps out there with holes here and there marching all kinds of crazy tempos with different marching styles, they are going to lose to a straight line, follow the leader, tempo 110-140 but clean smaller corps. size doesnt make it cleaner. in fact, size can actually work against you...the more you have, the harder it is to clean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotdogchompa Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) size doesnt make it cleaner. in fact, size can actually work against you...the more you have, the harder it is to clean I think that is pretty obvious. The 2 actual examples I gave show that the judges are giving no credit to size. FC 15 Guard vs WS 5 guard. I'm not saying that WS guard is not good, they are very good. But what is too small? 3 guard? What if Vigilantes had only 5 guard, would that have helped their score and be able to keep the visual score the same? Size should have some equivalant to difficulty. Play all clean 1/4 notes with a 15 man battery compared to a tough book with 2 snares a tenor and 3 man bass line. who wins? No battery LSM and 13 man SD is a good comparison. SD has at least 13 more people on the field and a section that LSM doesn't even have. Ensemble Percussion LSM = 99 SD = 110 (and after WS it jumps 150-164) Field Visual LSM = 135 SD = 138 Visual Effect B LSM = 116 SD = 120 Is SD that bad??? you be the judge Music Effect should go down somewhere in the sheet with smaller numbers unless they can blow the house down volume-wise. The smaller lines may actually get more credit for playing there ###$ off. Vigilantes are a good example. You couldn't tell they only had 14 brass. Big volume and less chance for error. Edited September 11, 2009 by hotdogchompa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbionNY Drum Line Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 i think I may love hotdogchompa... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I think that is pretty obvious. The 2 actual examples I gave show that the judges are giving no credit to size. FC 15 Guard vs WS 5 guard. I'm not saying that WS guard is not good, they are very good. But what is too small? 3 guard? What if Vigilantes had only 5 guard, would that have helped their score and be able to keep the visual score the same? Size should have some equivalant to difficulty. Play all clean 1/4 notes with a 15 man battery compared to a tough book with 2 snares a tenor and 3 man bass line. who wins? it may be close, but my guess is clean wins. Again you dont get points just for trying No battery LSM and 13 man SD is a good comparison. SD has at least 13 more people on the field and a section that LSM doesn't even have. Ensemble Percussion LSM = 99 SD = 110 (and after WS it jumps 150-164) Field Visual LSM = 135 SD = 138 Visual Effect B LSM = 116 SD = 120 Is SD that bad??? you be the judge didnt see either sadly. But a grounded ensemble has challenges that a moving line doesnt. just because an ensemble doesnt move mean it's easier...they have, IMO, even more listening demands...and more props if they move around to different instruments...going from marimba to vibes means they have to master two similar, yet different disciplines Music Effect should go down somewhere in the sheet with smaller numbers unless they can blow the house down volume-wise. The smaller lines may actually get more credit for playing there ###$ off. Vigilantes are a good example. You couldn't tell they only had 14 brass. Big volume and less chance for error. exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I think that is pretty obvious. The 2 actual examples I gave show that the judges are giving no credit to size. FC 15 Guard vs WS 5 guard. I'm not saying that WS guard is not good, they are very good. But what is too small? 3 guard? What if Vigilantes had only 5 guard, would that have helped their score and be able to keep the visual score the same? Size should have some equivalant to difficulty. Play all clean 1/4 notes with a 15 man battery compared to a tough book with 2 snares a tenor and 3 man bass line. who wins? No battery LSM and 13 man SD is a good comparison. SD has at least 13 more people on the field and a section that LSM doesn't even have. Ensemble Percussion LSM = 99 SD = 110 (and after WS it jumps 150-164) Field Visual LSM = 135 SD = 138 Visual Effect B LSM = 116 SD = 120 Is SD that bad??? you be the judge Music Effect should go down somewhere in the sheet with smaller numbers unless they can blow the house down volume-wise. The smaller lines may actually get more credit for playing there ###$ off. Vigilantes are a good example. You couldn't tell they only had 14 brass. Big volume and less chance for error. Ummmmmmmmm .......... WOW. Thank you for dumping LSM in such a complete and thorough manner. According to the judges, LSM was doing some things right. In comparison with SD, SD was a tad better. By saying, "Is SD that bad???" You're directly implying that LSM = total suck ...... which I hope you retract and pretty darn fast or we won't be sharing a beer anytime soon. ....... if you catch my drift! Further, Bigger numbers = easier to hide. Smaller numbers = easier to find ticks. Smaller is harder to achieve a high level than it is with more numbers. Granted, LSM had no battery on the field, but the last time I checked, the sheet didn't say FIELD BATTERY. There have been other corps in the past who have grounded their entire percussion ensemble and won world championships - VENTURES ring a bell? I am in no way implying LSM was better or worse than any other corps on the field at prelims ... but I'll be danged if you're going to throw any corps under the bus like that to try and prove a desperate point. It's LAME, juvenile and disrespectful to all involved (INCLUDING SD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I would also like to point out that with no battery on the field, the brass ensemble demand goes through the ROOF! There is no pulse center to key off of. Each member on the field must know when to watch, listen or anticipate with ZERO reference behind them. I think that's worth a couple extra tenths. Bottom line, you do what you have to with what you have ........... that's what we all do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill R Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I would also like to point out that with no battery on the field, the brass ensemble demand goes through the ROOF! There is no pulse center to key off of. Each member on the field must know when to watch, listen or anticipate with ZERO reference behind them. I think that's worth a couple extra tenths. Bottom line, you do what you have to with what you have ........... that's what we all do. 2000 Generations........................................ 24 brass ...................... 7 percussion in the pit jumping around from instrument to instrument. 1 judge said they were a show by themselves. And oh yes, DCA Class A World Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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