Lets discuss

[audiodb]

I think your on to something here. Back in the '60s and '70s you had multiple sponsors for Drum Corps to attend, VFW, AL, CYO, World Open, Danny Thomas, Mid-American, US Open all being major championship shows and titles for corps to win. Now that's all narrowed down to only one show - DCI. Was nice that you could have multiple winners throughout the year at different locations but now we only have DCI.

That is a significant observation.

I have noticed that alumni of the DCI era seem to have less pride in the quality of their corps (and less interest in recordings of their corps), especially if they failed to make top 12/top 25. Before DCI, with all the major contests you enumerated above, you had as many as 30 units taking pride in their "finalist" status vs. 12 ever since. Some corps in the 26th-40th place range at DCI were more impressive performers than the lower finalists of the early 1970s major shows, and every bit as competitive....but bringing everyone together into one brutal championship contest gave them harsher results.

This is just one part of my own theory on the decline, which I sum up with one word....elitism. IMO, we could have had more corps today if the activity selected a more inclusive direction to focus on. Instead, DCI took the VFW tradition of 12 finalists, and doubled down on it by making them the voting members that governed DCI in the early years. At first, all the benefits of the DCI model (access to all the shows of a logical tour, guaranteed appearance money, voting rights, etc.) were only provided to those top 12 corps. That number has changed over the years (growing to 25, then cutting back to 21, now determined by committee), but the principle remains the same....the elite corps are the "haves", and everyone else are the "have-nots". In such a system, the number of corps will continue to erode until the "have-nots" are all gone.

Now, this is not to say that there would not have been a decline at all. It seems likely that after the baby boomers aged out, less kids would lead to less corps. Not that many less, though. And the decline grew severe enough to snowball in the late '70s and early '80s, as local circuits began to shut down when too few corps remained in them, forcing the survivors to travel farther to remain competitively active.

To acknowledge some other points made in this thread:

- Some point to the decline in support from veterans' organizations, churches and/or civic organizations as a factor. Well, yes, that is a factor, but not the #1 thing in my opinion. I'd say it is clear that the mushrooming financial obligation of running a touring corps (even per the open-class or regional-only models) created a budget deficit far larger than the typical VFW/AL/church/PAL/CYO sponsorship....in other words, preserving the local/regional/national models of 40 years ago would have saved more dollars than preserving the sponsorships of that era.

- We always hear about how kids have more activities to choose from today than 40 years ago. That is arguable to begin with (after all, much of the wave of junior corps creation in the '50s was to keep kids from finding destructive "activities" by giving them something constructive to do in a drum corps). But even if you accept that premise, some youth activities have grown over the same time period that junior drum corps has declined.

- Some say it all comes down to money; others point to management. Honestly, for any corps to function, they need all three of the Ms (money, members and management). Lose any one of those, and the corps folds. To their credit, DCI has made efforts to help corps with each of those three resources, and they have achieved real progress on all three at one time or another. But as with most things, the benefits of that progress have gone to the member corps, not often shared with (and sonetimes at the expense of) the non-member corps.

- And yes, the 1976 Avant Garde DCI prelim finish was possibly the most ridiculous episode in the history of DCI Championships. Interesting to note that Avant Garde director Jeff Perkins turned down the DCI associate membership his corps earned with it's 25th-place 1975 finish when he learned what the DCI tour expectations were. The 1976 corps was clearly improved over 1975, but finished 39th at DCI.

[audiodb]

from my perspective, Keith, the loss of 'local' big shows like the US Open and the American International shot a big competition hole in that region, and could have had some doing in the demise of a lot of small corps in that area. to them/us, those were our 'championships', our annual pilgrimages.

That's another thing worth noting....that for many local or regional corps, having a major contest in a permanent location gave them something to base their annual budget on. Moving targets like DCI Championships (and AL/VFW Nationals before that) were far more expensive propositions for annual participation. Thus, contests like World Open, U.S. Open, AIO, the state championships VFW and AL sponsored filled a vital role for the overwhelming majority of corps (i.e. those not affluent enough to travel to "nationals" every year).

Unfortunately, DCI took an adversarial approach to every one of these alternatives at some point.

[kstein]

- We always hear about how kids have more activities to choose from today than 40 years ago. That is arguable to begin with (after all, much of the wave of junior corps creation in the '50s was to keep kids from finding destructive "activities" by giving them something constructive to do in a drum corps). But even if you accept that premise, some youth activities have grown over the same time period that junior drum corps has declined.

I would respectfully say this is not an arguable point, particularly with the introduction of Title IX, which I believe was in the early 70's. Up until that point, there were limited outlets for girls who wanted some kind of physical and competitive venue. Drum corps did fill that niche for many young ladies. Once some of these same girls were able to participate in sports, the overall "pool" had to be diminished. For someone of my mother's generation, for example, being a majorette or cheerleader were the only "physical" outlets they were offered. By the time I went to high school (late 70's/early 80's) we had a nice assortment of sports teams to choose from, and today's young ladies clearly have even more diverse options.

The high schools in our area have far, far more teams than we ever had, and they have a huge assortment of various bands and ensembles from which to choose, too. I would think that would have to have an impact on the pool of kids available to march drum corps. The kids from our local high school band program are very highly regarded, particularly in the jazz idiom. (The marching program is not nearly as successful.) The demands placed on their time by this staff would make marching in drum corps nearly impossible for this group of kids. Neighboring schools with strong marching programs and drum corps friendly staffs seem to be much more accomodating.

Just a different perspective, and your mileage may vary.

Karen

[BariBrian]

BRAVO my friends. VERY well said Edited December 31, 2009 by BariBrian

[KeithHall]

Is it really that there are more activities or is it that drum corps isn't as interesting to kids? BITD most drum corps didn't have the band students, they taught non-band students how to play horns and drums. I can't even get students to come after school to do jazz ensemble....why? Computer games, video games and being with friends.

I would like to propose that DCI re-organize and fill board members with elected officials that are elected by all directors that participate at DCI Championships. This will rid DCI of "elitism" and allow others from the Open Class world to make decisions that will have a positive affect on drum corps in general.

I am really happy to see some really good conversation going on in this post. Thanks to all (I know I repeated myself...I'm old).

[kstein]

You know, I hesitate to go down the path of, "Today's kids are lazier and they don't want to work that hard." I hesitate, yet I think there's probably some significant validity to that line of thinking.

[THEEXCELSIORDIRECTOR]

Frankly Keith ,

There is a lot to contend with now... Internet, XBOX - Laziness. I have 7 Children - I have seen a migration in rescpect, attitude, care, gratefulness, dignity and the list could go on -

In kids who are their friends ( cuz god knows I would not tolerate that in my own children - ) that I can not believe. If it's not blikin or twinkin or making noise and or able to text they could be bothered - None of today's kids have the drive or the tenacity to do what we do by choice. And the kicker is.... most adults (parents) are to tired from working their butts off to do anything about it.

Today's kids are getting over weight and complacent - Happy enough to be merely living and having a good time. Not really striving to be more... not really getting exposed enough this great activity to know what they are missing really.

This area is large and is very difficult to work - I really need a full time recruiting GURU - who has marketing skills and access to the right places.

There needs to be a tremendous marketing campaign - with NEWS stations and PAPERS on board to revive this and our kids. IF Drum Corps is going to survive - People need to get proactive....

It is far more easy - and attainable for kids to get music scholarships then SPORTS - with today's economy parents can't afford to over look what drum corps can do for them !!!!!

[amadorj]

That is a significant observation.

I have noticed that alumni of the DCI era seem to have less pride in the quality of their corps (and less interest in recordings of their corps), especially if they failed to make top 12/top 25. Before DCI, with all the major contests you enumerated above, you had as many as 30 units taking pride in their "finalist" status vs. 12 ever since. Some corps in the 26th-40th place range at DCI were more impressive performers than the lower finalists of the early 1970s major shows, and every bit as competitive....but bringing everyone together into one brutal championship contest gave them harsher results.

This is just one part of my own theory on the decline, which I sum up with one word....elitism. IMO, we could have had more corps today if the activity selected a more inclusive direction to focus on. Instead, DCI took the VFW tradition of 12 finalists, and doubled down on it by making them the voting members that governed DCI in the early years. At first, all the benefits of the DCI model (access to all the shows of a logical tour, guaranteed appearance money, voting rights, etc.) were only provided to those top 12 corps. That number has changed over the years (growing to 25, then cutting back to 21, now determined by committee), but the principle remains the same....the elite corps are the "haves", and everyone else are the "have-nots". In such a system, the number of corps will continue to erode until the "have-nots" are all gone.

Now, this is not to say that there would not have been a decline at all. It seems likely that after the baby boomers aged out, less kids would lead to less corps. Not that many less, though. And the decline grew severe enough to snowball in the late '70s and early '80s, as local circuits began to shut down when too few corps remained in them, forcing the survivors to travel farther to remain competitively active.

To acknowledge some other points made in this thread:

- Some point to the decline in support from veterans' organizations, churches and/or civic organizations as a factor. Well, yes, that is a factor, but not the #1 thing in my opinion. I'd say it is clear that the mushrooming financial obligation of running a touring corps (even per the open-class or regional-only models) created a budget deficit far larger than the typical VFW/AL/church/PAL/CYO sponsorship....in other words, preserving the local/regional/national models of 40 years ago would have saved more dollars than preserving the sponsorships of that era.

- We always hear about how kids have more activities to choose from today than 40 years ago. That is arguable to begin with (after all, much of the wave of junior corps creation in the '50s was to keep kids from finding destructive "activities" by giving them something constructive to do in a drum corps). But even if you accept that premise, some youth activities have grown over the same time period that junior drum corps has declined.

- Some say it all comes down to money; others point to management. Honestly, for any corps to function, they need all three of the Ms (money, members and management). Lose any one of those, and the corps folds. To their credit, DCI has made efforts to help corps with each of those three resources, and they have achieved real progress on all three at one time or another. But as with most things, the benefits of that progress have gone to the member corps, not often shared with (and sonetimes at the expense of) the non-member corps.

- And yes, the 1976 Avant Garde DCI prelim finish was possibly the most ridiculous episode in the history of DCI Championships. Interesting to note that Avant Garde director Jeff Perkins turned down the DCI associate membership his corps earned with it's 25th-place 1975 finish when he learned what the DCI tour expectations were. The 1976 corps was clearly improved over 1975, but finished 39th at DCI.

I like your three "m" example. Regarding the "m" for members, when I think about some of the kids I marched with ('60's-'70s) most didn't have a music background like today's kids. They were just kids who looked at drum corps as a release. The only reason I got into drum corps was because Gail Royer caught me cutting school and made me show up at a practice (I was hooked!), we had a lead sop who was living out of his car and played with us till he aged out, another kid was in a motorcycle gang and ended up playing cymbals and later bass drum for us (grease stained jeans, chains and all). The kids of that era were more "blue collar" than today's music majors. And your right, we all fell into drum corps as our release activity but could easily been into destructive areas. The fact that the kids of that era had more drum corps to choose from cut back on the competitiveness of marching in any corps - unlike today's kids. If you had a warm body you could march and the corps taught you how to play a bugle, drum or spin a flag which wasn't an issue. With fewer drum corps to march in, compounded with the high cost for the kids to march today has moved more kids into other areas which is unfortunate for drum corps and only allowing the very best (the elite) to participate in drum corps.

Edited December 31, 2009 by amadorj

[blucru]

I like your three "m" example. Regarding the "m" for members, when I think about some of the kids I marched with ('60's-'70s) most didn't have a music background like today's kids. They were just kids who looked at drum corps as a release. The only reason I got into drum corps was because Gail Royer caught me cutting school and made me show up at a practice (I was hooked!), we had a lead sop who was living out of his car and played with us till he aged out, another kid was in a motorcycle gang and ended up playing cymbals and later bass drum for us (grease stained jeans, chains and all). The kids of that era were more "blue collar" than today's music majors. And your right, we all fell into drum corps as our release activity but could easily been into destructive areas. The fact that the kids of that era had more drum corps to choose from cut back on the competitiveness of marching in any corps - unlike today's kids. If you had a warm body you could march and the corps taught you how to play a bugle, drum or spin a flag which wasn't an issue. With fewer drum corps to march in, compounded with the high cost for the kids to march today has moved more kids into other areas which is unfortunately for drum corps and only allowing the very best (the elite) to participate in drum corps.

Excellent points! BITD we were just a bunch of no- talent or some-talent kids that got hooked into this drum corps thing (and yes, I was one of those "push this valve to play that note" kids) Now, if we were to show up to a corps audition camp in this day and age, I don't think we would have a snowballs chance in #@$% of even being considered for whatever corps......

[BariBrian]

I like your three "m" example. Regarding the "m" for members, when I think about some of the kids I marched with ('60's-'70s) most didn't have a music background like today's kids. They were just kids who looked at drum corps as a release. The only reason I got into drum corps was because Gail Royer caught me cutting school and made me show up at a practice (I was hooked!), we had a lead sop who was living out of his car and played with us till he aged out, another kid was in a motorcycle gang and ended up playing cymbals and later bass drum for us (grease stained jeans, chains and all). The kids of that era were more "blue collar" than today's music majors. And your right, we all fell into drum corps as our release activity but could easily been into destructive areas. The fact that the kids of that era had more drum corps to choose from cut back on the competitiveness of marching in any corps - unlike today's kids. If you had a warm body you could march and the corps taught you how to play a bugle, drum or spin a flag which wasn't an issue. With fewer drum corps to march in, compounded with the high cost for the kids to march today has moved more kids into other areas which is unfortunately for drum corps and only allowing the very best (the elite) to participate in drum corps.

This is another great point. We had so many choices back then. Even the choice of Good person / Bad Person. I was brought in a town that was very tough and economicaly depressed even back then. However, it was also a town that supported (This is no lie) Seven (yes 7) drum and bugle corps all at the same time. Many of thos corps were responsible for making great kids out of kids that could have gone either way. As they disapeared (the corps) the kids started making other choices, some good, but most not so good. Hopefully someone at DCI with VISION beyond its members finds a way to develop new corps, or else even the Elite corps will someday sucumb from lack of membership with no places to draw from