Integration in drum corps?

[BRASSO]

Not every African American social organization was formed because they were banned from integrated activities. Black folks created their own institutions out of neighborhoods, churches, and community centers. My father's hometown had an African American brass band that formed out of a community center.

Exactly. Drum Corps, church's, civic groups, etc sometimes were formed and everybody was welcome, but the group took on a particular " color " if you will, because essentially where the group gathered and had practices or meetings tended to reflect the people and their interests from their immediate neighborhoods. Oftentimes, there was not any exclusionary policies at all. They were more than happy to be fully inclusionary, but unintentially the group took on a particular race or enthnicity because similar minded people gravitated to that group. This of course is different from any organization that purposefully is inhospitable to anyone based upon race, religion, gender, ethnicity, etc... and so forth.

Edited February 9, 2010 by BRASSO

[The Other Mike]

I always believed that drum corps had a mission to play in the diversification of America. Drum corps was the place where it was cool to be black, white, Latino, Native, straight or gay. At least I thought drum corps was once the closest point in America to true diversity.

Some of the most racist people I knew changed BECAUSE of drum corps and band. ( back in the 60's/70's)

It was the 1st African American kid in the horn line that nick named himself "eight ball".

[BRASSO]

I think there is sufficient case law to refute your concerns over all-male groups. Heck, football teams generally exclude females. Fraternities. Even the military, despite the fact that many 'patrols' in Iraq became combat patrols, officially exclude women from combat roles. This depsite the fact that women now occupy literally every role in the military...first 4-star General promoted within the last two years! Shriners are all men I believe? Masons, too. Other groups as well. Anyone help with that one?

I didn't read your entire post...1am, didn't feel like reading, didn't like the tone of the first paragraph. I think there is merit to all-single sex education/schools...ever hear of the Jesuits? Two of the finest private schools in Dallas are all-male schools. Cavies and Scouts are what they are...started as Boy Scout troops. "No Gurlz Allowed," in the words of the great philosopher, Calvin (the cartoon character). I mean, the majority of participants in DC are male anyways. If you required Cavies/Scouts to become co-ed, would women show up? Sure. But would you really want them to?

As for the African-American situation, I think that situation is due to the lower participation in school bands by that demographic. Fewer trumpet players with black skin equals fewer black members of drum corps...fair assumption, right? Fewer corps market to local members...address those points that I mentioned in my first post...the move from neighborhood to national and locals to auditions.

Is boy-girl membership fair to bring up? Sure. But aside from those two corps, what are the total membership numbers across the entire activity? Hmm???

Good points, and you're welcome to comment and/or offer factual information. But I think it is fair to say that the integration conversation has historically involved the integration of blacks into, pardon the term, "white" society. I realize that the West Coast has had some issues with racism toward Asians that the South has had toward blacks. Feel free to chime in on the situation in other regions--I'm not an expert on the Cali stuff.

That said, I sure did like the recollection of Gail Royer's treatment of all members as "a bunch of kids," to paraphrase. Class act.

Yes, we can agree not to read a post because we don't like "the tone" or whatever. I did it with your reply here too, and as such have no idea what your wrote above. It's not worth either of our time to reply to half read comments. It really isn't. At least not for me... anyway, take care, good luck...

Edited February 10, 2010 by BRASSO

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

Exactly. Drum Corps, church's, civic groups, etc sometimes were formed and everybody was welcome, but the group took on a particular " color " if you will, because essentially where the group gathered and had practices or meetings tended to reflect the people and their interests from their immediate neighborhoods. Oftentimes, there was not any exclusionary policies at all. They were more than happy to be fully inclusionary, but unintentially the group took on a particular race or enthnicity because similar minded people gravitated to that group. This of course is different from any organization that purposefully is inhospitable to anyone based upon race, religion, gender, ethnicity, etc... and so forth.

Well, I think that's a slightly different point. One thing I think we have to keep in mind is historical context. I was responding to the notion that black groups were formed simply because they weren't welcomed by whites. In that view, white institutions are the desirable ones, and African Americans "settle" by creating their own institutions. Historically, and I'm referring to pre-1950s, African Americans (never monolithic) in some cases were welcome at white churches (particularly in the North) but often chose their own churches because of a preference for a more emotive worship style. Sometimes social institutions like the brass band I referred to earlier were an off-shoot of these type of groups.

On the other hand, in the contemporary world, some non-diverse groups can be non-welcoming or percieved as non-welcoming to others. I think all groups need to be welcoming and encouraging of diversity.

[BRASSO]

Some of the most racist people I knew changed BECAUSE of drum corps and band. ( back in the 60's/70's)

It was the 1st African American kid in the horn line that nick named himself "eight ball".

Most kids in corps that had blacks, whites, latinos, asians, etc...in the 50's, 60's really had no problems along racial lines. These were, afterall, kids from the neighborhood... the parish.... These were your neighbors, your fellow church goers, your fellow baseball, basketball, football comrades. You hung out together, got in and out of scrapes together. You knew their famiies, they knew your family.

Knowing this, when you joined Drum Corps with your neighbors, there was never friction along racial lines. They were already your best buds and the color of their skin wasn't grounds to ridicule. Only pimples and acne skin comments might get you into a short pushing and shoving match over issues regarding skin..... ( haha)

Edited February 10, 2010 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

Well, I think that's a slightly different point. One thing I think we have to keep in mind is historical context. I was responding to the notion that black groups were formed simply because they weren't welcomed by whites. In that view, white institutions are the desirable ones, and African Americans "settle" by creating their own institutions. Historically, and I'm referring to pre-1950s, African Americans (never monolithic) in some cases were welcome at white churches (particularly in the North) but often chose their own churches because of a preference for a more emotive worship style. Sometimes social institutions like the brass band I referred to earlier were an off-shoot of these type of groups.

On the other hand, in the contemporary world, some non-diverse groups can be non-welcoming or percieved as non-welcoming to others. I think all groups need to be welcoming and encouraging of diversity.

Thanks for clarifying. I understand our point now that some blacks formed groups in the 50's not by choice, but because of neccessity as avenues to white groups were closed to them. This is ( as you said ) different than (say ) All Black Colleges and All Black Marching Bands that now choose to afiliate in this fashion today. But not by neccessity now, but by choice.

Edited February 10, 2010 by BRASSO

[Jim Anello]

I have been reviewing this thread, and I must compliment all of you for conducting a civil conversation about a topic that could get incendiary in a big hurry. Bravo to all of you.

If there is a decline in minority membership in drum corps, I cannot help but wonder if the decline of big city school music programs is a cause. I can't speak for other cities, but Milwaukee used to have a super music program throughout the city. North side or south side -it didn't matter - you could find strong music programs with a lot of diversity. They fueled a lot of the Milwaukee area corps and youth bands. However, for a lot of reasons I don't understand, a decline started in the late '70s, and Milwaukee's school music programs are a shadow of what they were.

One of the interesting trends of inclusion that hasn't been discussed here concerns gays. I realize this is a raging generalization, but I think there is much more acceptance of openly gay members in corps since the early '70s. I would be interested in what others have to say on this subject.

In terms of corps in history with strong minority memberships, I would like to recall two midwest corps that haven't been mentioned. First, Chicago's Nisei Ambassadors was the late '60s midwest equivalent of the LA Chinese and the Mandarins. True, they had a large Asian population, but the corps seemed more of a melting pot to me, with blacks and whites also in the membership. The other corps I wanted to mention was the Des Plaines Vanguard. The change in Des Plaines' demographics in the years 1964 (I think they were the Skokie Vanguard then) to the early '70s was quite striking. If you look at a picture of the corps in the mid-sixties, the corps is all, if not mostly, white. By 1969, that changed dramatically. By 1972, Des Plaines had a black drum major and many black members. I remember that DM, He had the kind of military carriage that made me think strength. He definitely didn't look like the kind of person you wanted to cross.

[Piper]

All I can remember on this subject is what the military taught me. "An enemy round coming at you doesn't care what color your paint job is".

[The Other Mike]

I have been reviewing this thread, and I must compliment all of you for conducting a civil conversation about a topic that could get incendiary in a big hurry. Bravo to all of you.

Now you've done it and you didn't knock on wood either.

[BRASSO]

Good points. As for " gays ", there is more acceptance overall in American society of " gays " since the 1970's to today. And as a result, there is more acceptance of " gays " in Drum Corps as well.

Furthermore, I think it's fair to say that DCI has evolved into one of the most accepting of openly " gay " members of any multi cultural youth organization in America, musical or otherwise.

As for overall black participation percentages dropping in Drum Corps since 1970 though, this is unfortunate, and there are probably a number of reasons for this. But it is a shame, really.

Edited February 10, 2010 by BRASSO