Integration in drum corps?

[BRASSO]

non co-ed schools..... normal

True. And of course we'd never read or hear from that school that they promote or support " diversity " either. And if they did, that would be a false claim as well. So mostly, these schools don't mention " diversity "..... and when they do, they are referring to minority outreach programs and such..., not gender outreach programs for gender " diversity ". That would give the patrons , alums, students, parents, boards of trustees, etc of that school the willies.

Edited February 9, 2010 by BRASSO

[Abbevillekid26]

If the Rotary Club had 30 clubs and 2 of them excluded females, then " yes" I think we could still say that The Rotary Club was an exclusionary organization, and had not advanced all that much in the " diversity " area.

If we had 30 schools in a school district with 2 of those schools exclusionary of blacks where the schools really made it clear that the blacks could come, but they were not really welcomed in numbers, would we say that the schools in that school district support and promote " diversity " ? I don't think that school district could make that claim, frankly.

I think then you could call those 2 clubs exclusionary, but again that's a small part of the organization. The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts are organizations inside of the organization and I think if there's a problem with diversity it should be taken up with them and not DCI.

A school district is different, they mandate what goes on in the schools. With DCI there's corps like SCV that require/prefer that members are college students and then there's corps that welcome much younger people.

[BRASSO]

It is good for especially the younger people to realize that - even though we may have a black president now - it was only a few short years ago that things were very much different. I can only speak from the 50's on, but drum corps as I knew it was pretty much color blind. (don't bother arguing that there was 1 or 2 segregated corps - there was but they were the exception)

The night of the riots in Rochester NY 1965, Crusaders were in Hamburg NY. We were told at the show that the city had exploded and the sheriff had been killed and the national guard had taken over - it was NOT pretty. We were also told we could not go home that the thruway exits were closed and we would NOT be allowed in. We had a fair number of black members - I would say more than most corps at the time and believe me, many lived in "danger zones" and these guys had to get home to their families... our cars were in Charlotte at the beach behind Grey Knight's post which meant we had to go through the worst of it just to get to our cars.

We met at the party after the show in Hamburg and voted as a corps to go home... we loaded the buses and headed for Rochester arriving about 3AM... The national guardsmen and state police tried to turn us around and send us back... In one of his finer moments, Vince Bruni held his ground and basically told the law that his men needed to get home to their families - PERIOD and if they wanted to stop us they would ahve to use force right there at the thruway exit. He ignored the cops and left them scratching their heads as our buses headed for the north side - ignoring the road blocks. How this pulled our corps together was amazing and may have even given us that little bit of extra something that made that a great corps in a national championship season.

It's moments like this, that DCP becomes something it's critics will never understand. it's their loss, not ours, for not being here to hear of stories like this. It is priceless. To not have heard of things like this would be a loss of this activities fine moments.

Thanks for sharing this interesting event that brought your Corps together in such an inspirational way, TomPeashey.

Edited February 9, 2010 by BRASSO

[silvertrombone]

There are scores of African-American corps that go back to the 1920's. Spirit of St. Louis, Hornets, CMCC Warriors, New York Lancers/Morrisanian Lancers, Memorial Lancers, Ebony Guard, Sabre's Edge, Carter Cadets, Wynn Center Toppers, VIPs, Page Park Cadets, Riversiders, Kips Bay, Quest, Brooklyn Cadets, Giles Yellow Jackets and Mighty Liberators are some that come to mind.

Thanks, NT--that's the kind of stuff I was curious about!

I appreciate everyone's replies. I honestly hadn't even thought about the "White's/Black's Only" stuff inherent in our society years ago--great to hear and know. Sad, but good to learn.

I only read the first page of replies so far...any further comments on the actual 'integration' of the corps themselves? We've heard the problems that sports and the military, etc had with being integrated. I imagine those problems also were present in our activity, but I've never heard any of those stories.

I particularly like the story of the manager who said they wouldn't be serving some members...oops! Love that the Director says, "We're outta here!" Love it! Nothing better than economics to change people's thinking.

[silvertrombone]

Until The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts have a DCI unit that looks more like America, how can one say that DCI has MORE diversity ? I'm not critical of The Cavaliers and the Madison Scouts remaining " All Male ". I think it is their choice, their perogative, and perfectly appropriate in a free society for an organization to want to retain it's preference for Males Only. In this politically correct era it is refeshing that these 2 Corps have been able to retain their traditional preference as to who they want to associate with, and to do so freely and openly.

That said, it is inconceivable that one can then make a claim that DCI has MORE diversity than other youth groups, sports, other enterprises, etc when half the population is excluded from membership to two of DCI's organization's charter member Corps. Corps that discriminate on gender, are not inclusionary, they are, in fact, exclusionary. Thus, there can be no legitimate claim of " diversity ". Diversity requires inclusionary membership. So, while I applaud The Cavaliers and the Madison Scouts quest to remain All Male, it does disabuse us of the notion that DCI offers MORE diversity. An objective analysis would show it does not pass the most basic test of diversity when females are either excluded or not really welcomed to participate at numbers that reflect their numbers in American society at large.

Additionally, there is no current DCI Corps today that has membership numbers of African- Americans that approaches the numbers one routinely found in DCI Corps in previous eras. For Instance, the Bridgemen from Bayonne, New Jersey were a top Corps in the early developmental years of DCI in the 70's early 80's. Their percentage of African -Americans as a percentage of marchers was in the double digit percentile level. When we contrast that with the DCI Corps of today, we find that there is no Corps today in DCI that has as a percentage of marchers a percentile that rises to double digit levels. Almost all DCI Corps of today are underrepresented with African- American marchers. The Corps that APPEARS to have more African- American marchers than any other World Class Corps seems to be the current DCI Champion, the Blue Devils. But this is just my personal observation, more than verifiable data.

In pre DCI days, there were many more African-Americans participating in Corps as a percentage of overall marchers. Some units, located almost entirely from large cities, were made up almost entirely of African- Americans. We also had " All Girl " Corps, and Corps that were primarily Asian- American. I could be wrong, but I believe that we have more Asian- Americans participating in DCI as a percentage of marchers, than DCI has had in previous eras. I also believe DCI has more of it's marchers whose home is abroad, rather than the US. I believe DCI has more Caucasians marching as a percentage of marchers than at any time before in it's history. Again, this would be just from my unobjective, personal observation, nothing that could be verified. But DCI does appear more " white " than in previous eras. It also demographically appears to have more marchers from the South US and Southwestern US than in previous eras as a percentage of location., and as a result there may be more Latinos marching than perhaps earller eras. I also think DCI has more affluent, more higher education percentile marchers, and more rural, more small town, more suburban marchers as a higher percentage of overall participants than perhaps in earlier DCI eras. ...... anyway, that would be my thoughts on diversity ( or lack thereof ) and demographic make up of DCI.

I think there is sufficient case law to refute your concerns over all-male groups. Heck, football teams generally exclude females. Fraternities. Even the military, despite the fact that many 'patrols' in Iraq became combat patrols, officially exclude women from combat roles. This depsite the fact that women now occupy literally every role in the military...first 4-star General promoted within the last two years! Shriners are all men I believe? Masons, too. Other groups as well. Anyone help with that one?

I didn't read your entire post...1am, didn't feel like reading, didn't like the tone of the first paragraph. I think there is merit to all-single sex education/schools...ever hear of the Jesuits? Two of the finest private schools in Dallas are all-male schools. Cavies and Scouts are what they are...started as Boy Scout troops. "No Gurlz Allowed," in the words of the great philosopher, Calvin (the cartoon character). I mean, the majority of participants in DC are male anyways. If you required Cavies/Scouts to become co-ed, would women show up? Sure. But would you really want them to?

As for the African-American situation, I think that situation is due to the lower participation in school bands by that demographic. Fewer trumpet players with black skin equals fewer black members of drum corps...fair assumption, right? Fewer corps market to local members...address those points that I mentioned in my first post...the move from neighborhood to national and locals to auditions.

Is boy-girl membership fair to bring up? Sure. But aside from those two corps, what are the total membership numbers across the entire activity? Hmm???

Diversity isn;t just about inclusion of Blacks....you have to include Asians, Latinos, etc....AND both genders.

Do a study on that in DCI and then get back to me.

Good points, and you're welcome to comment and/or offer factual information. But I think it is fair to say that the integration conversation has historically involved the integration of blacks into, pardon the term, "white" society. I realize that the West Coast has had some issues with racism toward Asians that the South has had toward blacks. Feel free to chime in on the situation in other regions--I'm not an expert on the Cali stuff.

That said, I sure did like the recollection of Gail Royer's treatment of all members as "a bunch of kids," to paraphrase. Class act.

[84BDsop]

Good points, and you're welcome to comment and/or offer factual information. But I think it is fair to say that the integration conversation has historically involved the integration of blacks into, pardon the term, "white" society. I realize that the West Coast has had some issues with racism toward Asians that the South has had toward blacks. Feel free to chime in on the situation in other regions--I'm not an expert on the Cali stuff.

Where that's concerned, I can only comment truthfully on my own experiences. In all the corps I've been in, there's been a great diversity in ethnic backgrounds, genders, ages (in the Sr ranks), etc.

In BD all the sections were pretty diverse....black, white, asian, American, Canadian, Navaho. The "whitest" section in 84 was probably the battery, although that was offset a little by the Navaho on tenors and the woman in the snare line.

BD has always been a meritocracy....if you were good enough to make the corps or earn a solo, you were in...that's all the staff really cared about...not getting a particular ethnic mix in the corps.

Dagenham, Empire, and SoCal Dream were also fairly diverse....I can't imagine it being any other way....so one guy has a MUCHO better natural tan than I do...big freakin' woop. Can he do his job on the field? That's all that matters.

[JimF-LowBari]

It is good for especially the younger people to realize that - even though we may have a black president now - it was only a few short years ago that things were very much different. I can only speak from the 50's on, but drum corps as I knew it was pretty much color blind. (don't bother arguing that there was 1 or 2 segregated corps - there was but they were the exception)

The night of the riots in Rochester NY 1965, Crusaders were in Hamburg NY. We were told at the show that the city had exploded and the sheriff had been killed and the national guard had taken over - it was NOT pretty. We were also told we could not go home that the thruway exits were closed and we would NOT be allowed in. We had a fair number of black members - I would say more than most corps at the time and believe me, many lived in "danger zones" and these guys had to get home to their families... our cars were in Charlotte at the beach behind Grey Knight's post which meant we had to go through the worst of it just to get to our cars.

We met at the party after the show in Hamburg and voted as a corps to go home... we loaded the buses and headed for Rochester arriving about 3AM... The national guardsmen and state police tried to turn us around and send us back... In one of his finer moments, Vince Bruni held his ground and basically told the law that his men needed to get home to their families - PERIOD and if they wanted to stop us they would ahve to use force right there at the thruway exit. He ignored the cops and left them scratching their heads as our buses headed for the north side - ignoring the road blocks. How this pulled our corps together was amazing and may have even given us that little bit of extra something that made that a great corps in a national championship season.

Thank you Tom and a question. I don't know Rochester but interested in knowing if there was any trouble around the area where DCA is held today? Asking because that area reminds me a lot of some of the areas of my hometown which also had its' riots in the late 60s.

When I was with Westshoremen Sr corps we had no minority members and we had no idea why. Corps was from a city with a large black population and the local HS was mainly black. Only idea we had was the local HS music program sucked and it was a poorer area. We only had one member from the local HS band and he was white. At times we wondered if people looked at us and thought "All white so they must exclude minorities" which was a lousy feeling.

Edited February 9, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[TomPeashey]

not quite in that area... the worst was Joseph Ave. which was across the river about 5 minutes away... turn right on Lyell Ave just north of the stadium and go over the river about 4 blocks to Joesep/Clinton Area. but now that you think about it - quite close... there were other fire zones on the Southwest side... again close but not in that area... If you took Broad St. past the stadium south to Main, the other area was south of Main off to the west...

But clearly, Joseph Ave. on the Northeast side was very much destroyed. That was the worst of it... That's where the copter crashed killing the sheriff too.

[JimF-LowBari]

not quite in that area... the worst was Joseph Ave. which was across the river about 5 minutes away... turn right on Lyell Ave just north of the stadium and go over the river about 4 blocks to Joesep/Clinton Area. but now that you think about it - quite close... there were other fire zones on the Southwest side... again close but not in that area... If you took Broad St. past the stadium south to Main, the other area was south of Main off to the west...

But clearly, Joseph Ave. on the Northeast side was very much destroyed. That was the worst of it... That's where the copter crashed killing the sheriff too.

Thanks that gives me a real good idea of the area now. My first year at Rochester (2007) I followed someone to the stadium but had to find my own way back to the hotel. Only option was the way we came in so had to turn left on Lyell coming out of the stadium to find the way back to the highway. Someone (forget who) at the stadium was horrified that I was going to drive "that way" back to the highway. Weird part was the area was kind of quiet compared to parts of downtown Harrisburg I have no problems with.

Still sounds like Harrisburg, some areas had no problems then and quite quiet today. Then you just go a few blocks in the wrong direction and....

[Blackstar]

ok, i'll throw a spark on the fire....

does DCI do anything to try and recruit minorities?

knowing what I do about education and disadvantaged schools, those types of place are the kinds of school that really, music is 4th class, if it even exists.

NO DCI does not do anything to recruit minorities. Corps do not do anything to recruit minorities. Maybe some of the smaller ones do but no one above the top 3-5 in open and top 20 in world.

I had some issues in the fire service. I started the recruitment and retention commitee for the state association. I left because all they wanted to do was go to the state fair and put up a booth. The attendence of the fair is 98% white. I tried to get them to go the several Hispanic and African American festivals around the state and nothing. No one thought it was a good idea. I volunteered to go to churches with them in thier district and got nothing.

People are comfortable with the status quo. Its okay to have "several" minorities but most people don't want to be the minoritiy. Many of the non minorities we had join our fire company (99% black) joined only because they had no where else to go.