CrunchyTenor Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 As for the area being saturated...I have to DISagree with Garry....I've thought the region was saturated years ago (re Jr corps...1 Sr does not over-saturation make). The fact that so many of these corps have struggled with numbers for so long indicates there IS an issue of too many corps too close together. It's not an issue of numbers or corps or proximity. At one time VK and Kingsmen were LITERALLY across the street from each other, and they both fielded competitive corps. IMO, it's all been a failure of effective recruiting. VK and Kingsmen had "their" schools, and there wasn't much crossover. (My school was an exception. We had VK, AK and LA Chinese in the drumlin alone. For the brass and CG, though, it was VK all the way!) Why are there not more relationships with the local directors? What recruiting methods are they using? What are they doing to retain auditionees? If there are twice as many band kids in the SoCal metro area (LA/OC/IE/SD) in 2010, why are there half as many kids in the 6 Open Class and one World Class corps as there were in 1972 when there were 7 Class-A and 3 to 4 Class-B corps? VK and Kingsmen weren't the only ones who toured, but they did the majority of it. SoCal isn't saturated. Not even close. The problem with small corps has everything to do with their recruiting and retention, which falls right into how professionally a corps presents itself to the kids AND their parents. Unless they've really got their #### together, the kids won't stay and neither will the parents. Same goes for NorCal. There are currently 3 WC and 2 OC corps. Their population has grown dramatically in the last 40 years, too, yet there are fewer corps. Why? I know a lot of it comes down to money, too. When Dream was part of IYAO, we were the only unit that ran in the black. We were fortunate to have the contacts and the ability to make a personal investment in the corps, and we were very tight with what little funding we had. Junior corps don't always have that luxury, or that fiscal awareness and responsibility. If BD experiences a big decline in revenues if this new bingo place goes in down the street, will there be a Plan-B that will allow them to continue to supprt the B, C and Diablo programs? I'll offer an unsolicited opinion on the fortunes of VK and Impulse the last couple of seasons. Impulse had pretty much gotten to a steady size and had been making improvements over several years. Along comes VK, and the fickle band kids go try to see what the new guy is bringing. In spite of Impulse's recent accomplishment as Division III Champions, kids went over to VK, as well as a few rookies and kids picked up from the folding of Esperanza. All of a sudden VK is competitive with Impulse in 2008, and then they pass them last year. This year is a correction of sorts. Impulse has upped their game and VK has a struggle on their hands. This may go on for a few years until things eventually stabilize. The question is can both survive the financial challenge? The Rooney/Garland movie plot of, "Hey, kids! Let's put on a show!" can't make it in this troubled time. It was tough enough before the recession kicked in, and not just for the newer and smaller organizations. Financing a drum corps has been difficult for 40 years that I know of, and it's not going to get easier anytime soon. I can't say I have all the answers. If I did I'm sure Dan Acheson would find me some office space. But for these SoCal corps, it's not proximity and saturation they need to worry about. It's money, professionalism and recruiting, and the three are very closely related. Garry in Vegas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 Ahhh...but if VK hadn't been relatively close to Impulse, those Impulse kids wouldn't've HAD a different place to try out that was fresh and new. I think it's a mix of both our thoughts, truth be told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasgroh Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Ahhh...but if VK hadn't been relatively close to Impulse, those Impulse kids wouldn't've HAD a different place to try out that was fresh and new.I think it's a mix of both our thoughts, truth be told. ...and one more factor that has a huge bearing on the situation: area high school band programs. The one's that are competitive (usually they have lots of support, 'cause if they don't they don't *compete* very well) are drum corps oriented and learn their shows from pretty much drum corps staffs. These are very time consuming programs, not to mention the fees that most charge their members. So...time and money are being extracted from memberships in unprecedented quantities...and both factors never really get smaller, not if the program wants to remain competitive. This demographic didn't exist "in the day"...the money thing is a beast and so is the time thing. Smaller corps in the area are scrambling to provide what kids they can attract with a "great" experience on small budgets, with many potential members suffering burnout and/or having to participate in summer programs for their bands that preclude membership in a drum corps. I just think that, as always, we're in the middle of evolution... cg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 ...and one more factor that has a huge bearing on the situation: area high school band programs. The one's that are competitive (usually they have lots of support, 'cause if they don't they don't *compete* very well) are drum corps oriented and learn their shows from pretty much drum corps staffs. These are very time consuming programs, not to mention the fees that most charge their members. So...time and money are being extracted from memberships in unprecedented quantities...and both factors never really get smaller, not if the program wants to remain competitive. This demographic didn't exist "in the day"...the money thing is a beast and so is the time thing. Smaller corps in the area are scrambling to provide what kids they can attract with a "great" experience on small budgets, with many potential members suffering burnout and/or having to participate in summer programs for their bands that preclude membership in a drum corps. I just think that, as always, we're in the middle of evolution...cg I'm going to PM you on that after I get home...would like your thoughts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepItReal Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Ahhh...but if VK hadn't been relatively close to Impulse, those Impulse kids wouldn't've HAD a different place to try out that was fresh and new.I think it's a mix of both our thoughts, truth be told. I think its more a matter of Impulse winning a div III title and everyone leaving, just as VK came on the scene. Its also a matter of the open class corps in SoCal being feeder corps for World corps in the area. Also throwing onto the wonderful complicated situation is that some of these Open corps are charging tour fees similar to their World counterparts. I remember seeing a post stating VK being 26 hundred or so. No, when I auditioned at Phantom full tour fees including camps came to 2300. Seeing as the demographic for these open corps is mostly HS kids, I would think the best bet for sustainability of an Open corps is to partner with local marching bands as a summer training, and half some portion of the tour fees count towards band fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex VK DM Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 CLIP... Also throwing onto the wonderful complicated situation is that some of these Open corps are charging tour fees similar to their World counterparts. ... CLIP BINGO!! Being on the west coast, it cost a LOT more to compete on a National level in Open class. I know TONS of kids that would like to march but just can't afford it. Either you stay local and not back to champships to keep the fees down or raise fees and limit the number of marchers to go to Nats. My belief is if you could get tour fees to $1,000 or less you would have full corps all over the place in So Cal. I too think there are too many corps in the area. Recruiting is a problem in a rich competitive band area in which when these kids see a potential corps they're thinking about marching, (early season shows) they're not that good. So a kid thinks "My band is better than that" and then will think about marching PC. I've seen PC's auditions and they have A LOT of So Cal kids, but these same kids wouldn't march any of the other local corps. Perceived value for the money I guess. On top of all this Kingsmen have said they want to restart their Jr. corps. It's just too much. Having 5 corps with 15-30 horns is not fun to me. I would much rather see 2 large corps comete nationaly every year. So. Cal CAN NOT support more than one competitive national touring corps at a time. Never has never will. In the 70s it was Kingmen, 80s & 90s VK, Since PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I too think there are too many corps in the area. Recruiting is a problem in a rich competitive band area in which when these kids see a potential corps they're thinking about marching, (early season shows) they're not that good. So a kid thinks "My band is better than that" and then will think about marching PC.I've seen PC's auditions and they have A LOT of So Cal kids, but these same kids wouldn't march any of the other local corps. Perceived value for the money I guess. See, Garry....it's NOT just me who thinks so! There IS room, however, for another Sr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarecal1 Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Okay...So in the past few days we have found out that: Mystikal is not fielding a corps this year. Incognito had recently folded. VK is marching 15ish horns. Impulse is significantly smaller than they used to be. Is southern California oversaturated in Open Class corps? Why not combine efforts? At what point does so many corps starting up and then not fielding hurt the activity? Funny that I saw this post- said this same thing to my dad at the Walnut show.......... However, I think keeping small corps is good for the budgets...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyTenor Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 See, Garry....it's NOT just me who thinks so!There IS room, however, for another Sr. While I respect Bill's opinion (and his VK roots), I'll give the nod to Mr Seidling as a voice of experience. Garry in Vegas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 While I respect Bill's opinion (and his VK roots), I'll give the nod to Mr Seidling as a voice of experience. Garry in Vegas No...but I often end up feeling like I'm alone in my opinions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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