GE is not Entertainment Value

[Bruckner8]

First of all, entertainment is already listed on the sheets. as with each suggested "thing to look/listen for," there are no actual weights involved.

Secondly, those of you calling for "6 points" for the winner of some kind of EV caption, do you even know how things are scored? Are you saying "take the score, like 98 for BD, and add 6 to it," making it 104? I think that's what some of you are suggesting, so that it would take Madison's current 88.25 to 94.25, thus lofting them into the elite immediately.

Finally, I'm perfectly happy letting excellence define the popularity. BD still gets roars of approval, thanks to their pure excellence. Sure, I won't be buying their CD/DVD anytime soon, and now that I've seen it once, I don't care if I ever see it again, but I came away thinking "Yup, that's how to design and perform a show to win." BD is practically poking fun at DCI right now. I swear their designers sit in their offices during Winter and say to each other "NOW WHAT can we do that's totally irrelevant, even stupid, but perform the hell out of, just to prove that we can throw any garbage out there and make it stick?" They could produce a show called "Variations on Chopsticks" and somehow make it win. More power to them.

Luckily, there's only 1 BD. If there were 12 or more, we'd be in trouble.

[N.E. Brigand]

The current brass playing style that is popular in modern drum corps is producing significantly better sounding brass lines (as far as tone quality and intonation) than in the past G era ... Listening to Phantom Regiment, when they play in the upper realm of volume, they definitely have an "edge" to their sound, one that would not be so blatant in modern top tier drum corps ... the 89 PR sound definitely as the characteristic sound of an older-era drum corps. I'm personally not saying that's a bad thing, but if you put that exact performance and put it up with some of the Top 3 or 4 horn lines from 2010, it would be closer to the bottom than the top (bottom meaning "only" 4th or 5th or so) ... it is not a 2010 Championship horn line, and would competitively have some problems with their edgy sound, and would need to tone it down a little bit and play with a little more control in order to compete for High Brass....

I'm not personally saying that there is anything wrong with that 89 PR horn line, I'm merely arguing that compared to the modern "standards" of other top horn lines in the activity, the tone quality would hurt them at times.

Thanks for the explanation, but could you clarify: are the modern standards higher or merely different from what existed in 1989? For instance, how would today's best brass lines fare by 1989's judging standards? Would the 1989 judges immediately recognize 2010 lines as superior?

[Todd Tanji]

First of all, entertainment is already listed on the sheets. as with each suggested "thing to look/listen for," there are no actual weights involved.

Secondly, those of you calling for "6 points" for the winner of some kind of EV caption, do you even know how things are scored? Are you saying "take the score, like 98 for BD, and add 6 to it," making it 104? I think that's what some of you are suggesting, so that it would take Madison's current 88.25 to 94.25, thus lofting them into the elite immediately.

Finally, I'm perfectly happy letting excellence define the popularity. BD still gets roars of approval, thanks to their pure excellence. Sure, I won't be buying their CD/DVD anytime soon, and now that I've seen it once, I don't care if I ever see it again, but I came away thinking "Yup, that's how to design and perform a show to win." BD is practically poking fun at DCI right now. I swear their designers sit in their offices during Winter and say to each other "NOW WHAT can we do that's totally irrelevant, even stupid, but perform the hell out of, just to prove that we can throw any garbage out there and make it stick?" They could produce a show called "Variations on Chopsticks" and somehow make it win. More power to them.

Luckily, there's only 1 BD. If there were 12 or more, we'd be in trouble.

That could rightfully be said about ANY corps.

[Tez]

First of all, entertainment is already listed on the sheets. as with each suggested "thing to look/listen for," there are no actual weights involved.

Secondly, those of you calling for "6 points" for the winner of some kind of EV caption, do you even know how things are scored? Are you saying "take the score, like 98 for BD, and add 6 to it," making it 104? I think that's what some of you are suggesting, so that it would take Madison's current 88.25 to 94.25, thus lofting them into the elite immediately.

Finally, I'm perfectly happy letting excellence define the popularity. BD still gets roars of approval, thanks to their pure excellence. Sure, I won't be buying their CD/DVD anytime soon, and now that I've seen it once, I don't care if I ever see it again, but I came away thinking "Yup, that's how to design and perform a show to win." BD is practically poking fun at DCI right now. I swear their designers sit in their offices during Winter and say to each other "NOW WHAT can we do that's totally irrelevant, even stupid, but perform the hell out of, just to prove that we can throw any garbage out there and make it stick?" They could produce a show called "Variations on Chopsticks" and somehow make it win. More power to them.

Luckily, there's only 1 BD. If there were 12 or more, we'd be in trouble.

I assume the above bolded statement is partially a joke, but I also assume you actually feel that BD only designs shows to win. If I felt like any of the design teams designed their shows only, and I mean only for the judges, I don't think I would be a fan of the activity...... (luckily I don't think this way).

[supersop]

While the poster you're referring to is obviously relying on much rhetoric, and maybe his example was a bit...bold, I think his point is still valid. The current brass playing style that is popular in modern drum corps is producing significantly better sounding brass lines (as far as tone quality and intonation) than in the past G era. I honestly don't know much history of 89 PR as far as what they did outside of the drum corps competitions, or what the make-up of their membership was. Listening to Phantom Regiment, when they play in the upper realm of volume, they definitely have an "edge" to their sound, one that would not be so blatant in modern top tier drum corps. Personally, brass was not what lost them the Championship, and actually is what helped keep them in contention. But the 89 PR sound definitely as the characteristic sound of an older-era drum corps. I'm personally not saying that's a bad thing, but if you put that exact performance and put it up with some of the Top 3 or 4 horn lines from 2010, it would be closer to the bottom than the top (bottom meaning "only" 4th or 5th or so). It was a great hornline, especially in comparison to it's competition and with what the characteristics of other horn lines of that era. But it is not a 2010 Championship horn line, and would competitively have some problems with their edgy sound, and would need to tone it down a little bit and play with a little more control in order to compete for High Brass.

** NOTE **

I'm not personally saying that there is anything wrong with that 89 PR horn line, I'm merely arguing that compared to the modern "standards" of other top horn lines in the activity, the tone quality would hurt them at times. I think that it's something that has potentially been a little bit of trouble for Crown's horn line this year. IMO, they play INCREDIBLY well most of the time, but in their attempt to achieve maximum volume in their big musical moments, I think they've pushed their tone a bit and get edgy. It's not a bad sound, per say, but it's not as great as last year's horn line; I think it placed 4th at Allentown.

There's just so much wrong with where this argument has gone .................................... I dont' know where to begin.

Most of this is baseless.

There was a time where "EDGE" was acceptable AS EFFECT when appropriate. Edge, sizzle, bus hair .. whatever you want to call it ... IS AND SHOULD ALWAYS BE A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC OF DCI. Sorry, it's not a concert band hall we're playing at. The comments about the 89 bari soloist (arguably the best bari player in the history of DCI ... check out his solo at I&E where he won baritone playing Carnival of Venice) .......... and the 89 PR brass sound ............. it's dumbfounding.

You guys (and some that have user names that say they are a percussionist), feel you can hold an argument with regards to brass tone quality and proper characteristics of brass sound ......... on a football field ... in a stadium filled with fans that at least half of them want to be blown back 3 rows (and not by amps). You just don't get that what you're arguing is what killed the unique identity that was drum and BUGLE corps.

While I'm thankful for the more widespread quality of hornlines using multi key ... I would trade it in a heartbeat for 12 or 13 lines that can pierce steel playing G Bugles .... even if the rest suffer because they don't have good enough ears to tune the horns on individual notes. It was a greater challenge and a much more fulfilling learning experience (and you can't argue that if you've never set your lips on a 2 valve G bugle ......... if you haven't then shut up). Learning to play on a 2 valve made my trumpet playing 100X better because of it.

I even remember some of you complaining about SCV lead trumpets playing a double G at the end of the push last year ....................... because it wasn't "necessary". Pffffft. That's concert band philosophy .... NOT DRUM CORPS mentality. It's not even due to a generation gap .. you just don't get it because you don't know what you're talking about. End of subject.

[N.E. Brigand]

Finally, I'm perfectly happy letting excellence define the popularity. BD still gets roars of approval, thanks to their pure excellence. Sure, I won't be buying their CD/DVD anytime soon, and now that I've seen it once, I don't care if I ever see it again, but I came away thinking "Yup, that's how to design and perform a show to win." BD is practically poking fun at DCI right now. I swear their designers sit in their offices during Winter and say to each other "NOW WHAT can we do that's totally irrelevant, even stupid, but perform the hell out of, just to prove that we can throw any garbage out there and make it stick?" They could produce a show called "Variations on Chopsticks" and somehow make it win. More power to them.

Wait a minute, Walt Whitman. Didn't you lately say of the Blue Devils that they were "blowing everyone away with their harmonic complexity (some call it noise...I love it)"?

[supersop]

First of all, entertainment is already listed on the sheets. as with each suggested "thing to look/listen for," there are no actual weights involved.

Secondly, those of you calling for "6 points" for the winner of some kind of EV caption, do you even know how things are scored? Are you saying "take the score, like 98 for BD, and add 6 to it," making it 104? I think that's what some of you are suggesting, so that it would take Madison's current 88.25 to 94.25, thus lofting them into the elite immediately.

Finally, I'm perfectly happy letting excellence define the popularity. BD still gets roars of approval, thanks to their pure excellence. Sure, I won't be buying their CD/DVD anytime soon, and now that I've seen it once, I don't care if I ever see it again, but I came away thinking "Yup, that's how to design and perform a show to win." BD is practically poking fun at DCI right now. I swear their designers sit in their offices during Winter and say to each other "NOW WHAT can we do that's totally irrelevant, even stupid, but perform the hell out of, just to prove that we can throw any garbage out there and make it stick?" They could produce a show called "Variations on Chopsticks" and somehow make it win. More power to them.

Luckily, there's only 1 BD. If there were 12 or more, we'd be in trouble.

I'm fairly certain the suggestion was to take away 6 pts from the obligatory mess we call GE and hand it over to someone else. Not add 6 pts to a 100 pt structure. OYE VEY!!!!!!!!!!!

[perc2100]

Thanks for the explanation, but could you clarify: are the modern standards higher or merely different from what existed in 1989? For instance, how would today's best brass lines fare by 1989's judging standards? Would the 1989 judges immediately recognize 2010 lines as superior?

In my opinion, it's probably different (I might've said/implied otherwise originally, but upon thinking about it longer, I think it's just different). Standards change depending on trends. Back in 89, since we're talking about PR 89, there was still Brass GE and Brass Performance (I think; I might be mistaken). If crowds like loud (which they seem to), then it seems logical that a louder drumline, though maybe a little edgier than a more controlled but quieter drumline, would get the crowd hyped and help GE. I can't stipulate if a 1989 judge would automatically recognize a 2010 brass line as superior: it's a slippery slope anytime anyone tries to compare minutia of aspects from different years/eras of drum corps. I do think it would be different, and I think that in a lot of circles there are differences in characteristic sounds: I know especially in marching band it's not unreasonable for a louder by edgier band to get the nod in ranking above a more controlled band who might come across as "flat" in performance. It's possible that due to the standards of that time and the preferences of the judges (based on what they were used to hearing from top corps of that era) that, say, Blue Devils 2010 might not win head to head with PR 89 because the judges wouldn't be hip to the playing and arranging style.

Good, bad, I don't know: it's definitely different though.

[perc2100]

There's just so much wrong with where this argument has gone .................................... I dont' know where to begin.

Most of this is baseless.

There was a time where "EDGE" was acceptable AS EFFECT when appropriate. Edge, sizzle, bus hair .. whatever you want to call it ... IS AND SHOULD ALWAYS BE A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC OF DCI. Sorry, it's not a concert band hall we're playing at. The comments about the 89 bari soloist (arguably the best bari player in the history of DCI ... check out his solo at I&E where he won baritone playing Carnival of Venice) .......... and the 89 PR brass sound ............. it's dumbfounding.

You guys (and some that have user names that say they are a percussionist), feel you can hold an argument with regards to brass tone quality and proper characteristics of brass sound ......... on a football field ... in a stadium filled with fans that at least half of them want to be blown back 3 rows (and not by amps). You just don't get that what you're arguing is what killed the unique identity that was drum and BUGLE corps.

While I'm thankful for the more widespread quality of hornlines using multi key ... I would trade it in a heartbeat for 12 or 13 lines that can pierce steel playing G Bugles .... even if the rest suffer because they don't have good enough ears to tune the horns on individual notes. It was a greater challenge and a much more fulfilling learning experience (and you can't argue that if you've never set your lips on a 2 valve G bugle ......... if you haven't then shut up). Learning to play on a 2 valve made my trumpet playing 100X better because of it.

I even remember some of you complaining about SCV lead trumpets playing a double G at the end of the push last year ....................... because it wasn't "necessary". Pffffft. That's concert band philosophy .... NOT DRUM CORPS mentality. It's not even due to a generation gap .. you just don't get it because you don't know what you're talking about. End of subject.

1) sorry if you look at my user name and assume that I haven't have any musical training in college, or haven't been teaching music in a band classroom for a decade or so (admittedly lately I've focused on percussion, but I have had time in the classroom teaching band). I am a percussionist, but it doesn't take a brass player to have a good understanding of tone quality.

2) I get that YOU THINK what I'm arguing is "killing the unique identity that was drum and bugle corps." What I was arguing, though, since you kind of missed the comprehension, is that the modern standards/trends dictate what's currently "good." I love that Phantom brass line, and taken for what it is they had one of the best brass lines in DCI history (obviously, they won DCI High Brass if I'm not mistaken). The point I was making is that compared to the current standards of brass performance Phantom Regiment 1989's Finals performance would come across as edgy, as their sound quality is diminished due to them blowing a little bit more than they can do with a near-perfect tone.

I do appreciate not only the condescension (not that it's shocking coming from a trumpet player ), but you wanting dictate your personal taste as drum corps law. I do appreciate what it takes to get a great brass sound, even though I'm only a lowly percussionist, and I'm by no means disparaging Phantom's 1989 brass line. I'm merely stating that there is an obvious difference between brass sounds of 1989 and 2010, and therefor there are different standards when adjudicating now vs then.

[Michael Boo]

My view is that "effect" is every bit as subjective as "entertainment." If effect were at all objective, then reasonable people might be able to agree on what it is. I've never been able to achieve any such consensus despite talking to many very smart people.

I think it's weird that people accept that "effect" can be judged, even though it can't be defined. Yet those same people will ridicule the idea that entertainment can be judged. If anything, entertainment is a more intuitive concept. Or at least more mainstream. Every newspaper has an "Entertainment" section. Few have "Effect" sections.

Skinner? Jung? Were those our drill instructors?

But have you talked with about this with any of the many very smart people who judge the caption?

I wouldn't use newspapers as an indication what drum corps should do. Drum Corps World is the only newspaper that has a section (the entire paper) dedicated to drum corps.

Skinner wrote the mallet parts to the first show we had in 1977. Jung was brought in to write the changes.