Blue Devils "B"

[KeithHall]

No, actually I meant it to be in World. Glad someone asked.

Are they that good to be in top 15 in World?

Wrong forum. THis should be in Open Class,

[jwscv87]

The Open Class sheets are different than they were when Magic won, and the tolerances are also a bit different. If anything, with the quality of this year's World Class factored in the the scores today on the low end, I'd put BDB around a 75 or so...just as a guess. I'd say that a 15 point difference would be on the low end. It's probably more in the 18-19 point range.

That being said, I think BDB would represent themselves very well in World Class, even with Open Class design.

You may very well be correct but unfortunately we can only speculate. I sure wish we could still see the cream of open class in quarters again. I have heard plenty of financial based arguments against allowing it but nothing that could not be overcome with a fair resolution. In the spirit of competiton I would love to see it open.

[Musicman1084]

I don't know where this whole "15 point difference" stuff is coming from. Historically, the spread has averaged 20+ points, with anything less generally coming from the groups who score in the HIGH-90s in OC. Only ONCE has a Division 2/3 corps had a spread of less than 15 between OC and WC (as far as I know), so now because BDB popped a 95 (average for OC), they're supposed to be able to pop an 80 in WC? I seem to remember plenty of corps scoring in the mid-90s in Div 2/3 who barely broke 70 in Div 1. Magic was an anomaly considering they should have been a Div 1 corps to begin with, and the fact that they nearly got a perfect score on Open sheets means a LOT when considering how it would translate to WC sheets.

It's impossible to make assumptions on how a certain corps would do just based on prior spreads and trends between divisions. There are just way too many factors to be able to do that.

Take a look at the last few years of score comparisons. These are the highest scores each corps got in each division. The average was less than 20pts only in the final two years, and it was due to (in my opinion) those few corps already making a transition to Division 1 quality drum corps. 2002 was arguably one of the strongest years at the top of OC. There's no doubting BDB is a terrific corps, but we don't need to speak about them like they're the second coming of Magic 2002 just because they're beating a fairly weak OC field by a few points.

2002 - Average = 15.6 (due to Magic)

11.90 - Magic - 99.05 OC, 87.15 WC

17.20 - Capital Regiment - 96.5 OC, 79.3 WC

17.75 - Mandarins - 95.8 OC, 78.05 WC

2001 - Average = 18.7

16.95 - Mandarins - 97.8 OC, 80.85 WC

17.05 - Cascades - 96.7 OC, 79.35 WC

20.15 - Spartans 93.95 OC, 73.8 WC

19.45 - Capital Regiment - 92.9 OC, 73.45 WC

19.90 - Patriots - 92.5 OC, 72.6 WC

2000 - Average = 20.7

19.85 - SCVC - 94.35 OC, 74.5

19.95 - Mandarins - 94.30 OC, 74.35

22.10 - Patriots 91.15 OC, 69.05 WC

19.45 - Jersey Surf 90.85 OC, 71.40 WC

22.20 - Cascades 89.70 OC, 67.50 WC

1999 - Average = 21

19.80 - Patriots - 96.30 OC, 76.5 WC

21.60 - Spartans - 95.30 OC, 73.7 WC

19.80 - Mandarins - 93.70 OC, 73.9 WC

22.00 - ECJ - 93.60 OC, 71.6 WC

22.00 - Blue Stars - 92.20 OC, 70.2 WC

1998 - Average = 22.9*

21.90 - ECJ - 97.1 OC, 75.20 WC

24.10 - Spartans - 97.1 OC, 73.00 WC

23.30 - Patriots - 96.60 OC, 73.30 WC

22.90 - Tarheel Sun - 96.30 OC, 73.40 WC

22.30 - Mandarins - 93.80 OC, 71.50 WC

*Some of the highest scores in Div2 History still had a spread of 22+

1997 - Average = 23.9

21.70 - Mandarins - 94.80 OC, 73.10 WC

23.10 - ECJ - 94.40 OC, 71.30 WC

24.40 - Spartans - 94.20 OC, 69.80 WC

24.30 - Patriots - 93.80 OC, 69.50 WC

26.20 - Blue Stars - 93.40 OC, 67.20 WC

Edited August 13, 2010 by Musicman1084

[Musicman1084]

You may very well be correct but unfortunately we can only speculate. I sure wish we could still see the cream of open class in quarters again. I have heard plenty of financial based arguments against allowing it but nothing that could not be overcome with a fair resolution. In the spirit of competiton I would love to see it open.

I agree, and it's a shame. I almost feel like at least the winner of OC should be allowed to compete, but with the new scheduling it seems impossible. Maybe a few years from now if OC is still dwindling in numbers they'll just do a prelims and finals on Tuesday and Wednesday and then allow the winner to compete in Quarters on Thursday?

...wishful thinking.

[Calistar]

I don't know where this whole "15 point difference" stuff is coming from. Historically, the spread has averaged 20+ points, with anything less generally coming from the groups who score in the HIGH-90s in OC. Only ONCE has a Division 2/3 corps had a spread of less than 15 between OC and WC (as far as I know), so now because BDB popped a 95 (average for OC), they're supposed to be able to pop an 80 in WC? I seem to remember plenty of corps scoring in the mid-90s in Div 2/3 who barely broke 70 in Div 1. Magic was an anomaly considering they should have been a Div 1 corps to begin with, and the fact that they nearly got a perfect score on Open sheets means a LOT when considering how it would translate to WC sheets.

It's impossible to make assumptions on how a certain corps would do just based on prior spreads and trends between divisions. There are just way too many factors to be able to do that.

Take a look at the last few years of score comparisons. These are the highest scores each corps got in each division. The average was less than 20pts only in the final two years, and it was due to (in my opinion) those few corps already making a transition to Division 1 quality drum corps. 2002 was arguably one of the strongest years at the top of OC. There's no doubting BDB is a terrific corps, but we don't need to speak about them like they're the second coming of Magic 2002 just because they're beating a fairly weak OC field by a few points.

2002 - Average = 15.6 (due to Magic)

11.90 - Magic - 99.05 OC, 87.15 WC

17.20 - Capital Regiment - 96.5 OC, 79.3 WC

17.75 - Mandarins - 95.8 OC, 78.05 WC

2001 - Average = 18.7

<snip>

Hmm...I guess I don't get your post. You say that "its impossible to make assumptions based on prior spreads and trends"...but then you post prior spreads and trends to prove the point that BDB wouldn't score as well as some people are saying?

Then you said that BDB popped a 95...well, actually it was a 95.8...but saying "96" probably would not help your point...

Then you said that a 95 was "average for OC"...well, not really...not in the quarters...it has happened, but not nearly often enough to say its "average".

Then you said that "we didn't need to speak about them like they're the second coming of Magic 2002", although I haven't seen anyone say that.

Then you said that BDB was "beating a fairly weak field by a few points" when in reality its 4.8 points...and I wouldn't call Oregon and Spartans "weak".

And...one problem with all the stats you showed, they were earned with a different scoring system and judging criteria.

Rather than relying on historical scores, I am going by what I have witnessed this summer. I've seen the Mandarins and Teal and Pioneer and Surf and I'm saying that BDB is right there with the best of them (at least thats my opinion). And the best of them are scoring in the 78-80 range.

sorry to get all specific. Let me know if I misread your post.

Cali.

[Musicman1084]

I wasn't responding to any particular post. I just find it odd that this arbitrary number of "15 points" seems to be thrown out there, when in reality, it has never been the case and fluctuated yearly, and yet for the past few years there are people that throw that number out there: 15.

And you did misread my intent. It wasn't to prove BD wouldn't score well; It was merely to prove how artificial the number 15 was to the people who were saying that it was historically that number.

I'll still stand by my statement regarding this being a weak field in Open Class in comparison to past years. Not to say BDB isn't as good, if not better, than most corps in past years, but there's no denying that OC is thin at the top this year.

Hmm...I guess I don't get your post. You say that "its impossible to make assumptions based on prior spreads and trends"...but then you post prior spreads and trends to prove the point that BDB wouldn't score as well as some people are saying?

Then you said that BDB popped a 95...well, actually it was a 95.8...but saying "96" probably would not help your point...

Then you said that a 95 was "average for OC"...well, not really...not in the quarters...it has happened, but not nearly often enough to say its "average".

Then you said that "we didn't need to speak about them like they're the second coming of Magic 2002", although I haven't seen anyone say that.

Then you said that BDB was "beating a fairly weak field by a few points" when in reality its 4.8 points...and I wouldn't call Oregon and Spartans "weak".

And...one problem with all the stats you showed, they were earned with a different scoring system and judging criteria.

Rather than relying on historical scores, I am going by what I have witnessed this summer. I've seen the Mandarins and Teal and Pioneer and Surf and I'm saying that BDB is right there with the best of them (at least thats my opinion). And the best of them are scoring in the 78-80 range.

sorry to get all specific. Let me know if I misread your post.

Cali.

[jhallman]

Why guess?

Put OC on same sheets. Sure Scores will be low, but the activity as whole will become better.

OC is OC because they are not ready yet for a full tour.

Finals Week:

Friday/Saturday - Qualifying shows at Allentown - OC in the morning, WC at night - 2 nights - same judges

Sunday - Quarterfinals

Tuesday - Semis - Evening Shows - FanFare (Free)

Wed - Finals - Evening Show - FanNetwork (Pay)

Thursday I&E for OC - Quarterfinals for WC (OC can enjoy the show, help fill the stadium for Loud and Live)

Friday - Semi-finals Top corps OC/WC - FanNetwork (Pay)

Saturday - Finals - Top 12....Random Order

[txorchdork013]

Why guess?

Put OC on same sheets. Sure Scores will be low, but the activity as whole will become better.

OC is OC because they are not ready yet for a full tour.

Finals Week:

Friday/Saturday - Qualifying shows at Allentown - OC in the morning, WC at night - 2 nights - same judges

Sunday - Quarterfinals

Tuesday - Semis - Evening Shows - FanFare (Free)

Wed - Finals - Evening Show - FanNetwork (Pay)

Thursday I&E for OC - Quarterfinals for WC (OC can enjoy the show, help fill the stadium for Loud and Live)

Friday - Semi-finals Top corps OC/WC - FanNetwork (Pay)

Saturday - Finals - Top 12....Random Order

[Calistar]

Why guess?

Put OC on same sheets. Sure Scores will be low, but the activity as whole will become better.

OC is OC because they are not ready yet for a full tour.

Finals Week:

Friday/Saturday - Qualifying shows at Allentown - OC in the morning, WC at night - 2 nights - same judges

Sunday - Quarterfinals

Tuesday - Semis - Evening Shows - FanFare (Free)

Wed - Finals - Evening Show - FanNetwork (Pay)

Thursday I&E for OC - Quarterfinals for WC (OC can enjoy the show, help fill the stadium for Loud and Live)

Friday - Semi-finals Top corps OC/WC - FanNetwork (Pay)

Saturday - Finals - Top 12....Random Order

That would be sweet...

By the way...just got a text from the BDB bus...they are on their way to the stadium...

They are very ready and focused from what I hear.

Cali.

[jwscv87]

I wasn't responding to any particular post. I just find it odd that this arbitrary number of "15 points" seems to be thrown out there, when in reality, it has never been the case and fluctuated yearly, and yet for the past few years there are people that throw that number out there: 15.

And you did misread my intent. It wasn't to prove BD wouldn't score well; It was merely to prove how artificial the number 15 was to the people who were saying that it was historically that number.

I'll still stand by my statement regarding this being a weak field in Open Class in comparison to past years. Not to say BDB isn't as good, if not better, than most corps in past years, but there's no denying that OC is thin at the top this year.

I was one of the culprits quoting the 15ish number. I could swear I had gone back and looked at stats in the same manner you did and came to that conclusion, but I did not save it. Based upon what you posted it seems more likely I am either mis-remembering or I had placed too much stock in the Magic year (an outlier). I was probably "not letting the facts get in the way of a good story" so to speak.