Shows from the past...

[GUARDLING]

I got a call last night from a Cavalier buddy who flat out stated that the DCI Worlds finalist corps we marched in back in 1975 would have lost to Blue Devils "B" this year.

lol...thats funny..but may be true..i look back compared to today and say why did we even break a sweat..we didnt move anywhere or it took 2 bazillion counts to get there......lol but it was fun

[bluecoats88]

lol...thats funny..but may be true..i look back compared to today and say why did we even break a sweat..we didnt move anywhere or it took 2 bazillion counts to get there......lol but it was fun

I think you broke a sweat back then because it was still summer and the sun is very hot when you're in it for 12 hours.

As to the amount of movement, it pales in comparison to what corps are doing today.

I just watched the overhead camera video from finals and if they had done that back in the day you probably would have seen every set during the time lapse pictures cause there were so few back then.

LOL

[victorcoly]

With some of the talk of BD establishing a new "paradigm" of performance and comparisons with Star '93, I started wondering... how far back do you think you could go to find a show (champion or otherwise) that would still be competitive (top three) against today's programs? Do you think any show from the past could have scored higher head to head against BD's show this year?

T-Mac

Musically, many past corps could / should beat BD's 2010 offering.

A few: 1999 SCV; 1991 Star of Indiana; 1998 Cadets; 1993 Blue Devils; 1992 Cavaliers

The main reason the above corps are listed -- and I could have made the list longer -- is that they all played a complete musical phrase for more than 50% of their program. No offense to the kids who marched in BD, but there was some incomplete phrasing all over that show -- and it was written that way to boot!

Visually, anything by the Cavaliers from 1991 to 2010 (yes -- I think Cavies should have won this year) was better than the mirrored stuff -- hands down.

[victorcoly]

Star of Indiana from 1991 would have beat every corps this year except the Blue Devils. Now I only say this because Star had a fairly modern show with high impact GE and awesome performance captions that year, and this year's Cavaliers and Bluecoats had some weaknesses. I also believe the Cavaliers from 1991 might have beat this year's version (maybe).

Jonathan?? 1991 Star would have handed this year's version of BD their proveribial lunch.

[t-mac]

You know, this got me thinking...Which show from 1993 do you think would score higher today...Cadets or Star? Just wondering.

[jwillis35]

You know, this got me thinking...Which show from 1993 do you think would score higher today...Cadets or Star? Just wondering.

I don't know that much would change. During the 1993 season I felt that Cadets had almost too much demand visually, and their brass book was outrageous. I wasn't sure they could clean it, and they never really did. Star of Indiana cleaned their show a bit better, but their visual demand, while very cutting edge, was not as hard, but the way the music and visual were put together was very sophisticated. The music book was also wicked hard. I believe that Star's show just fit together a bit better, and The Cadets had a wonderful show with all kinds of demand, but the drum book and brass book often fought with each other (example, listen to the end of the 2nd tune).

Honestly, here is the first thing people need to do (especially new corps fans):

1. Listen to good recordings of both shows (audio only). I don't think we heard anything this year more demanding than those two shows, and the sheer technique in the Cadets show was astonishing!

2. Watch a video of the two shows, preferably a nice DVD or Video done by DCI.

Now I think you can make a judgment on who might win today if these two competed.

My feeling is that Star of Indiana would. Why? First off, they should have won then. Secondly, the Cadets show (which is one of my favs) was more of an off-shoot of the late 80s-early 90s style. It was like Cadets 1990 on Steroids. Same with their 1992 show. Star's show was more ground breaking and modern. It was like watching a show from 2005 in 1993.

I believe that the judges would see Star's show today much like they did this version of the Blue Devils. But don't get me wrong, the Cadets were awesome, Star was awesome, and that was a great duel that year. Phantom pulling into 3rd by season's end was also a nice surprise, and what a masterful show that was.

[Peel Paint]

LMAO, and people today complain that corps design for the judges. BITD it was beat the crap out of basic drill to cut down on the number of tics.

We marched in two Sr circuits for a while. One circuit had the "not quite ready for DCA" corps (nod to SNL "Not ready for Prime Time Players") and was GE heavy in the scores. Then there was DCA which was execution driven and cleaner. Still remember doing a run thru and being kinda sloppy. Then we heard the scream "It's DCA this weekend, so execute #### it execute!!!".

In this case it would be: "It's BITD judges, so execute #### it execute!!".

Yeah, that's true, go back to the early 80s, and they're counting ticks, and the scoresheet wouldn't be pretty with this kind of demand. There was a reason they Kept It Simple, Smarty.

Interesting thoughts. I'd been wondering if a corps that wanted to make a statement could drop the amps and synths for a season, maybe keep the Bb and 150 members, but follow through on the old-skool teasing that Madison and Cadets employed this year, and come up with an authentic retro design that, while it might not win, would, by virtue of being different and being executed well, place well in finals and become a fan fave.

Definitely. Agreed: winning would be hard--when isn't it hard to win?--but that could still place well.

[Wadep66]

Go back and watch the colorguards from the 80s, in particular Garfield 84 and 83 and Suncoast Sound in 1985. They did about 1 spin/toss for every 20 that are done now. As high-energy as those shows seemed, they would look quite static compared to what we watch now.

The colorguard didn't figure in the score as a separate caption until when?

[Peel Paint]

Well, I really wasn't wanting to consider rules...just design and performance level. For instance, do you think Star ''91 or '93 would be Top 3 this year? What about SCV '99? What about Cavies' 4 Corners or Cadets Stonehenge? SCV '89? How far back before design and execution become noticably out of the top 3?

I don't think it's far at all. With any top three show and performance given more than about five years ago, top three would be hard today, and I doubt even top six would be likely doable. The judges are constantly raising the bar on what they're seeking, and freshness in the design is critical. They want the 150 bodies on the field. They want the electronics now. It would be hard to score well without them.

Even focusing just on design and performance level, rules or judging standards have always been a critical part of the formula. If you move a show from one era to another, the score will change dramatically even if you take penalties off the sheet.

The drills for smaller corps can't just be scaled up to 150 members, or vice versa. They have to be redesigned and rethought from the ground up, if you have 30 more bodies or 30 fewer bodies to place on the field. Prior to circa 1982, the pit instruments weren't grounded but were marched, with far less sophisticated instrumental sound. But if not grounded, they're in the drill, and they have to be staged. If you don't have electronics, the musical book is totally different. Today's brass judges might wince at intonation and tone quality that wouldn't have been heavily ticked back in 1980. And so on.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Peel Paint

[WestCoaster]

Musically, many past corps could / should beat BD's 2010 offering.

A few: 1999 SCV; 1991 Star of Indiana; 1998 Cadets; 1993 Blue Devils; 1992 Cavaliers

The main reason the above corps are listed -- and I could have made the list longer -- is that they all played a complete musical phrase for more than 50% of their program. No offense to the kids who marched in BD, but there was some incomplete phrasing all over that show -- and it was written that way to boot!

Visually, anything by the Cavaliers from 1991 to 2010 (yes -- I think Cavies should have won this year) was better than the mirrored stuff -- hands down.

Hate much?

It's pretty funny that you would throw in 93 Devs (and all appropriate props and kudos to their stellar hornline included), you couldn't even have included one of the more COMPETETIVE BD years? In 93, the drumline was still in relative chaos and the program was in transitional mode bigtime. They were simply fighting to stay out of FIFTH. And you think they could've beat BD musically in 2010? Ridiculous.

Some of your other picks are weak, too, so I'd love to see your "longer list" dude. Bring it on.

91 Star was great, but their drumline couldn't hold a candle to BD 2010 (yes, even FOURTH place BD 2010), and Cavies 92 had a weak hornline AND drumline and were lucky to win at all (Star was the best, but fell apart on finals night because the staff demanded "more emotion" out of them, which resulted in many mistakes for whatever reason).

No offense? Yeah, what you wrote wasn't offensive at all.

Just having re-watched the incredible and undefeated 2010 show, I can say with complete honestly that the phrasing was fine. The performers were on fire. And I would be hard-pressed to suggest ANY year where they could've been challenged. Maybe the "all time greatest" list, like BD last year, Cadets and Cavies with their super-scores, possibly a few others but likely NONE of the ones you mention...I really can't figure where you're getting your ideas from if not from your "these ones are my favorites" list somewhere in your own head.

Edited August 18, 2010 by WestCoaster