Questions for the Dinos!

[Steve Knob]

Strange, I could've sworn I saw Madison do a high mark time this summer.

You do still see some high mark time. I will use 4 or 8 counts for effect with my HS band, but when I started marching, it was the ONLY way we marked time, slow or fast, loud or soft, uptempo or ballad, always high mark time! It did start to change in the late 70's some.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Steve Knob

[byline]

You're right Michael. It WAS wrong. But BITD, it was very very common to blame the Guard for any close "loss". Don't know why, but that's the way it was. Maybe that's why you see so many great and CLEAN guards from back then. We had to fight every step of the way to eliminate tics so as not to feel like we let our Corps down.

It was wrong, but I think Whitney alludes to it in her RAMD post that I linked earlier.

Back then, the color guard did not receive its own score (well, except for the measly two points we were awarded starting in '78; can't remember how long that lasted before it was dropped altogether, and I'm too lazy to look it up). So, in terms of points, the guard actually stood to do more harm than good because of all the ticks that could accumulate. The guard was not able to contribute points to a score (except in some sort of nebulous way in the GE caption), but could only lose points, so the guard was blamed for something that was more the fault of an inadequate judging system than anything that we could control.

[flugelswerebugels]

BD and Spirit are two corps I think of from the late '70s to '80 whose horn lines did not overblow, yet had plenty of volume thanks to good arrangements, talented players and instructors who knew how to help the brass players achieve balance and good intonation.

Maybe it wasn't coincidence that Jim Ott worked with both of those lines. By the time I got to BD, he had moved on to Spirit, but we also had a few good people on staff - Wayne Downey, Frank Dorrittie and Jack Meehan, to name a few. They knew how to get both loud and good sounds out of a horn line.

[byline]

It was wrong, but I think Whitney alludes to it in her RAMD post that I linked earlier.

Back then, the color guard did not receive its own score (well, except for the measly two points we were awarded starting in '78; can't remember how long that lasted before it was dropped altogether, and I'm too lazy to look it up). So, in terms of points, the guard actually stood to do more harm than good because of all the ticks that could accumulate. The guard was not able to contribute points to a score (except in some sort of nebulous way in the GE caption), but could only lose points, so the guard was blamed for something that was more the fault of an inadequate judging system than anything that we could control.

Just to add to this: I have always thought that rifle lines were unfairly targeted for drops. Because let's face it: Back in the day, they were the only section (other than sabers, which were used less frequently) that was required to release its equipment . . . and they did it routinely, as expected, many, many times throughout their show. And frankly, if you have a rifle line that isn't tossing, what's the point? (See Garfield 1987.) So of course there was always the chance that someone in the line would drop sometime, somewhere. Thanks to the laws of physics, the odds are just too great.

And once the flag lines started tossing? To paraphrase Rondo: Whoa, Nellie, watch out! Flags are especially tricky because, unlike a rifle, they are not a blunt object with a natural rotation when tossed. Even when the flagpoles are weighted, the "sail" effect created by the flag creates wind resistance, which can be tricky to deal with even in the best weather conditions. Throw a little wind in there, and things get really interesting. You can teach your guard to throw a tighter rotation against the wind, but even that doesn't always work due to the unpredictability of wind. Not to mention the fact that it took a while before weighting flagpoles even became a common practice. (I'm thinking it was the mid-'80s or thereabouts.) Try tossing an unweighted flagpole sometime, and see how consistent your timing and catches are. I can answer that (because I worked for a band director who, in the beginning, said no when I begged him to let me weight my guard's flagpoles): Not very.

Yes, you can have a drop-less show; teaching and rehearsing good technique go a long way toward minimizing the chance of drops. But there's always the chance for Mother Nature to intervene -- a gust of wind here, a drop of rain there, or maybe part of your uniform catches or tangles up your equipment, or maybe something completely unexpected distracts you, interrupting your concentration for a split-second, or maybe the performer had a stomach bug and, and all that technique and strength built up over the summer go . . . well, you know -- and boom! The flag or rifle slips from that person's hands and lands on the ground, and they're staring at it wondering what the heck just happened because they'd never dropped before.

There are countless variables that can affect even the best-trained and -rehearsed rifle or flag line, and it just seems to me that drops were inevitable. So why single them out as being akin to the third sign of the coming Apocalypse? I think it's a lot like falls in figure skating. They're the thing that, even if you know nothing else about color guard (or figure skating), you know that was a mistake. And for the performer? Well, frankly, it's embarrassing, because unless that dropped rifle or flag miraculously bounces back up into your hands (which actually does happen), you have to bend over to pick it up, thus taking you completely out of your show until you can get back in. So I think drops tend to get overinflated in importance in people's minds.

Edited September 7, 2010 by byline

[LancerFi]

I always thought it was dumb to call a rifle or flag drop a 'penalty'...it was a physical error, just like a blown attack or bad release.

[Mellofello01]

Indeed there was a rule against grounded instruments. Corps that did it took a penalty. Grounding during concert was allowed. Kilties did it because they didn't have enough players and felt the penalty would be offset by a better GE score for having tympani versus not having them. (I was the melodic perc instructor for Blue Stars in 80 and 81 and had to learn the rule book.)

This is essentially correct. Wheels, too. The timps were grounded on their pedestals, on the field, for the entire show. Having one tympanist was the obvious and simplest solution. One dude, marking time with the corps in motion. This freed up three spots for other sections. The color guard got them.

The keyboards were carried and stood next to the timps for most of the show. (that's why you can hear them on recordings) The keyboards were grounded in concert and the players used cowbells, shakers and other things. Also it gave them a bit of a break. Tymbalis, too, though these remained carried.

They all even smiled at times during concert. Imagine that.

The Kilts percussion section had an interesting season in '78.

So yes, the Kilts were the first to completely ground timps, becoming the first pit in 1978. Small yes, but a pit.

Who knew this simple act would evolve into the magnificant pit roadshows of today.

[perc2100]

Watched a few 70's shows today and I have some questions that I'm sure many members of the helpful DCP community can answer (not sarcasm)

1. Why did the judge shoot a pistol into the air during the Scouts 75 show? (1 minute warning???)

2. What is a color pre?

3. When did the mark time go "out of fashion"?

4. What was the first year pit was on the sideline?

5. What type of horn was used in the 70's?

6. What was the horn line size (on average)?

7. How are most of the hornlines and marching percussion so darn loud?

Most of these questions are pertaining to 70's drum corps.

Please help edumacate me.

Relieved that while I'm still a 'dino' I'm too young to answer any of those questions from experience