Stick Tricks!

[skewerz]

Didn't say that Bridgemen weren't good. But think about it. If they had spent as much time working on playing crazier notes rather than the blindfold thing they would have been even better. I don't really care what crowds are into. That's not what my comment was about. I don't find stick tricks to be at all interesting. They're flashy and pointless in my opinion. Playing music unbelievable well should be enough. If you have to rely on stick tricks to get the crowd's attention, you're not doing your job well enough.

obviously you never saw the Bridgemen drumline live. You didn't win drum title after drum title in the tic era by being just flashy and not technical. They happened to be both. The Tom Float lines were just as incredible.

The highlighted sentence is what's wrong with drum corps today. There is no drum corps without the crowd.

What's your definition of playing music unbelievably well? As many notes as possible, no matter that it doesn't match the music being played? What about the Bluecoats? They still seem to have a bit of flair in their drum solos...some backsticking...ripples...an obscene amount of monkey drumming at the end...do they qualify at unbelievably well?

The Bridgemen have proved that you can be technical AND have an entertaining flair at the same time.

[charlie1223]

I think it was Phantom 86....a toss from one end of the line to the other...saw em 4 times, never dropped. I'd agree with all of the other ones listed too

Was this trick similar to the one used in Cadets 2006? Where the guy tosses a stick across the line and catches it?

[tommytimp]

Ugh. I hate all stick tricks. They take up practice time in which the group could be learning to play and march better.

Probably not true, either. Not at the highest level, anyway. Pat Petrillo used to say the 81 and 82 lines (82 especially) hit critical mass sometime on second tour. They warmed up, played a few runthrus and did some ensemble, but that was it. They knew (as most lines do) that there was a certain point on tour where you're not going to get "big picture" cleaner. And any line that spends a huge amount of time on visuals is a line without a very good instructor.

[actucker]

obviously you never saw the Bridgemen drumline live. You didn't win drum title after drum title in the tic era by being just flashy and not technical. They happened to be both. The Tom Float lines were just as incredible.

The highlighted sentence is what's wrong with drum corps today. There is no drum corps without the crowd.

What's your definition of playing music unbelievably well? As many notes as possible, no matter that it doesn't match the music being played? What about the Bluecoats? They still seem to have a bit of flair in their drum solos...some backsticking...ripples...an obscene amount of monkey drumming at the end...do they qualify at unbelievably well?

The Bridgemen have proved that you can be technical AND have an entertaining flair at the same time.

I did not have the privilege of seeing Bridgemen live, but that has not stopped me from studying the activity pretty carefully for most of my life. I am fully award of how well those lines played, but the fact is, no line is beyond improvement. A line that has stopped trying to improve has bad instruction. I was lucky enough to march in some groups and learn from some great teachers, and even on finals day we were trying to get better. It is a never ending process. The old adage holds true. The day you stop trying to get better is the day you start to get worse.

And I'll say it again, if you can't get the crowd's attention without stupid flash, then you're not doing anything meaningful. Its kind of like voice overs. If you can't get the point of your show across without them, you're not doing your job. Coltrane didn't need crazy gimmicks to be one of the most influential musicians in history. Neither did Brahms, or Copeland. The fact is, we need to stop trying to be popular because its never going to happen. We are a fringe activity, and always will be. But if we are really teaching and training excellent musicians, there will always be another generations of kids chomping at the bit to follow in their footsteps. The problem with the activity isn't a disregard for the crowd, its the fact that they insult the crowds intelligence with stupid and gimmicky visuals because they don't trust the crowd to understand the music and the story behind the show.

Edited January 21, 2011 by actucker

[skewerz]

I did not have the privilege of seeing Bridgemen live, but that has not stopped me from studying the activity pretty carefully for most of my life. I am fully award of how well those lines played, but the fact is, no line is beyond improvement. A line that has stopped trying to improve has bad instruction. I was lucky enough to march in some groups and learn from some great teachers, and even on finals day we were trying to get better. It is a never ending process. The old adage holds true. The day you stop trying to get better is the day you start to get worse.

And I'll say it again, if you can't get the crowd's attention without stupid flash, then you're not doing anything meaningful. Its kind of like voice overs. If you can't get the point of your show across without them, you're not doing your job. Coltrane didn't need crazy gimmicks to be one of the most influential musicians in history. Neither did Brahms, or Copeland. The fact is, we need to stop trying to be popular because its never going to happen. We are a fringe activity, and always will be. But if we are really teaching and training excellent musicians, there will always be another generations of kids chomping at the bit to follow in their footsteps. The problem with the activity isn't a disregard for the crowd, its the fact that they insult the crowds intelligence with stupid and gimmicky visuals because they don't trust the crowd to understand the music and the story behind the show.

Coltrane isn't drum corps. Brahms isn't drum corps. Copeland isn't drum corps. Drum corps is a smaller niche than classical, so drum corps need to do what they can to get butts in the seats. You say we need to stop trying to be popular, but you most definitely have to be popular with the drum corps fans. If you don't think the average drum corps fan doesn't like some flash...some bang...even some cheese...you are sadly mistaken. Spartacus had some great music, but would anyone have really cared if they hadn't laid the cheese on extra thick? Nope. It was the cheese...the glitz...that made the show what it was.

Why do drum corps wear bright uniforms? Toss rifles? Toss sabres? Diamond cutters? The Viper? Have chrome accessories on the drums? Polish their horns? Power chords during a company front? They do all these things to add stupid flash...

[charlie1223]

I did not have the privilege of seeing Bridgemen live, but that has not stopped me from studying the activity pretty carefully for most of my life. I am fully award of how well those lines played, but the fact is, no line is beyond improvement. A line that has stopped trying to improve has bad instruction. I was lucky enough to march in some groups and learn from some great teachers, and even on finals day we were trying to get better. It is a never ending process. The old adage holds true. The day you stop trying to get better is the day you start to get worse.

And I'll say it again, if you can't get the crowd's attention without stupid flash, then you're not doing anything meaningful. Its kind of like voice overs. If you can't get the point of your show across without them, you're not doing your job. Coltrane didn't need crazy gimmicks to be one of the most influential musicians in history. Neither did Brahms, or Copeland. The fact is, we need to stop trying to be popular because its never going to happen. We are a fringe activity, and always will be. But if we are really teaching and training excellent musicians, there will always be another generations of kids chomping at the bit to follow in their footsteps. The problem with the activity isn't a disregard for the crowd, its the fact that they insult the crowds intelligence with stupid and gimmicky visuals because they don't trust the crowd to understand the music and the story behind the show.

I'm curious as to know what your definition of "stupid flashy" is.

[RetiredJedi]

I did not have the privilege of seeing Bridgemen live, but that has not stopped me from studying the activity pretty carefully for most of my life. 1) I am fully award of how well those lines played, but the fact is, 2) no line is beyond improvement. 3) A line that has stopped trying to improve has bad instruction. I was lucky enough to march in some groups and learn from some great teachers, and even on finals day we were trying to get better. It is a never ending process. The old adage holds true. The day you stop trying to get better is the day you start to get worse.

I want to talk to you about this in positive way so that you can understand the other side of the discussion. Maybe you might see things from another viewpoint that way.

1. Those guys were crazy talented. That's a given. It's my opinion that "The Blindfold" was A) a way to keep challenging these guys and B) A brilliant GE move. It wasn't a part of the show to hide a weakness and fill it with a gimmick. Those guys were too frickin' good to need anything watered out or need a gimmick.

2. I agree. There's fuzz in every show. These guys performance ~ not so much...

3. I agree with this in theory. If you're specifically saying that DeLucia needed gimmicks and was a bad instructor then NO WAY I agree with you.

Another thing I think you're missing is that we're talking about The Bridgemen. They were the kings of showmanship. They found a way to challenge themselves, improve their show, display that Bridgemen attitude and showmanship, and still be #### clean doing it. I think you might be splitting hairs if you want to call out these guys as an example of a line that needed more meat in their show and relied on gimmicks.

Hopefully I've presented you something from a different viewpoint to consider.

Edited January 22, 2011 by RetiredJedi

[actucker]

I want to talk to you about this in positive way so that you can understand the other side of the discussion. Maybe you might see things from another viewpoint that way.

1. Those guys were crazy talented. That's a given. It's my opinion that "The Blindfold" was A) a way to keep challenging these guys and B) A brilliant GE move. It wasn't a part of the show to hide a weakness and fill it with a gimmick. Those guys were too frickin' good to need anything watered out or need a gimmick.

2. I agree. There's fuzz in every show. These guys performance ~ not so much...

3. I agree with this in theory. If you're specifically saying that DeLucia needed gimmicks and was a bad instructor then NO WAY I agree with you.

Another thing I think you're missing is that we're talking about The Bridgemen. They were the kings of showmanship. They found a way to challenge themselves, improve their show, display that Bridgemen attitude and showmanship, and still be #### clean doing it. I think you might be splitting hairs if you want to call out these guys as an example of a line that needed more meat in their show and relied on gimmicks.

Hopefully I've presented you something from a different viewpoint to consider.

I appreciate your point of view, but I'm not the one who brought up the Bridgement, and they would not be the first I would think of when calling a group out in terms of using flash to hide lack of ability. There is no question that they could play. I've said that a couple of times. My point is, more often than not, you see groups using those same kinds of gimmicks but then show a complete lack of musical range. This has become the norm in modern design rather than the outlier, and that's a problem.

[RetiredJedi]

I appreciate your point of view, but I'm not the one who brought up the Bridgement, and they would not be the first I would think of when calling a group out in terms of using flash to hide lack of ability. There is no question that they could play. I've said that a couple of times. My point is, more often than not, you see groups using those same kinds of gimmicks but then show a complete lack of musical range. This has become the norm in modern design rather than the outlier, and that's a problem.

Fair enough.

[actucker]

Coltrane isn't drum corps. Brahms isn't drum corps. Copeland isn't drum corps. Drum corps is a smaller niche than classical, so drum corps need to do what they can to get butts in the seats. You say we need to stop trying to be popular, but you most definitely have to be popular with the drum corps fans. If you don't think the average drum corps fan doesn't like some flash...some bang...even some cheese...you are sadly mistaken. Spartacus had some great music, but would anyone have really cared if they hadn't laid the cheese on extra thick? Nope. It was the cheese...the glitz...that made the show what it was.

Why do drum corps wear bright uniforms? Toss rifles? Toss sabres? Diamond cutters? The Viper? Have chrome accessories on the drums? Polish their horns? Power chords during a company front? They do all these things to add stupid flash...

Coltrane isn't Brahms, and Brahms isn't Copeland, and yet they've all been brought to a marching field. Its all music, and the music should come first. Spartacus wasn't effective because of irrelevant flash. It was effective because the pairing of the music and the visual told a story. There's a fine line between telling that story, and using gimmicks to boost your GE score.

As for your assessment of the "average drum corps fan", I think you underestimate their ability to understand what is going on. I see it a lot especially in the younger fans. People are tired of seeing contrived and pointless fluff at the sacrifice of actual music. They're sick of being beaten over the head by show concepts because the design staffs think that we're not intelligent enough to interpret (or worse, they're only interested in a score). The fact is, whether we like it or not, drum corps is not the same activity it was 30 years ago. There isn't a drum corps in every town, playing parades for the masses in the summer and needing flash and silliness to attract an audience. We play for a more select audience, who is much more informed, and they are capable of sorting good music from great music. If you play great music, you won't need stick flips, gimmicky characters or voice overs to get their attention. Play great music, march great drill, and tell a story, and they'll show up. The funny thing is, nobody was talking about corps having problems making enough money from tickets before we started adding stupid things like ridiculous sound systems and gimmicky props to boost our scores. If we corps didn't have to pay for all of that, they wouldn't have to charge their students 3-4 thousand dollars a summer, and they might be doing just fine with the crowds we have.

The thing is, I understand that I'm in the minority here. I'm fine with that. You're not going to convince me that stick tricks aren't a complete waste of time anymore than I'm going to convince you that they are. I'm a musician and music lover first, long before I'm a drum corps person, so if there is something that is getting in the way of the music, I'm not a big fan of it. Stick tricks fall into that category. I'm not opposed to pushing the envelope and challenging ourselves, but let me ask you this. When was the last time you heard a drum line truly play well at piano? Not the typical 3 inches which would cut through your average brass line, but actual piano. When was the last time you heard a brass line truly address some complex harmony and play it in tune? When was the last time you saw a truly new visual idea on the field? The moments are getting fewer and further between.