Pushing the Envelope

[BOSMarcher]

Just because the music may have been played elsewhere doesn't mean it can't push the envelope

You're right, but I was not refering to just the music.

[BrassMan09]

You're right, but I was not refering to just the music.

Intriguing, explain... I feel that the music they use has been done before but the Visual program is pushing the envelope for the weekend activity...

[BOSMarcher]

Intriguing, explain... I feel that the music they use has been done before but the Visual program is pushing the envelope for the weekend activity...

I agree with you there. I was actually referring more to the concept. With all of the ideas that are possible out there, why pick one that has been done three times by junior corps? Don't get me wrong, it was done very well and was entertaining. I am just waiting for them to create a show that is truly their own. This year's show is probably the closest they have come in recent years. The reason that I say it is close is because of the Blue Devils "Dance Derby" show... though I have a feeling the Bucs show will be VERY different.

I agree that it makes sense to use the Pines of Rome to do a Roman show... and even the Spartacus music, but the only thing that was not "borrowed" from a past Rome-themed show, was the heraled trumpets (which happened to be used the same year the Cadets used them... with the same brass caption head).

Like I said, they did it very well, and I believe they deserved to win. I just want them to something that is completely their own. Of course, they are not the only group that fits into this category; I just used them as an example.

[luvscorps]

I suppose you could then say the same thing about the late 90s/early 00s Brigadiers and their resemblance to the team from Concord. Or the 2004 Statesmen and their resemblance to the 1991 and 1992 Madison Scouts. Or the 2010 MBI team and their resemblance to both Madison (Kashmir) and the Bluecoats (Caravan theme). Or the 2007 Cabs and their resemblance to the 1990 Santa Clara Vanguard. Or the Windsor Regiment the 2004 Phantom Regiment (heck, they even have a similar corps name!). Or so on and so on and so on..... The Sunrisers are doing Les Miserables...just like the 1989 Cadets - forgot about that one. They might just raise the bar on what a weekend-only, Class A corps can achieve, but I suppose it'll lack meaning because it's a rehash....

One of the cool things about drum corps is the ability of a group to take things that HAVE been done before and are popular with fans and put their own twist on them. If that's a rehash, then I think we're too permissive with that term.

[Fran Haring]

The Sunrisers are doing Les Miserables...just like the 1989 Cadets

Or like the 1996 Sunrisers.

One could say the 2010 Cadets did Procession of the Nobles, just like the 1969 Sunrisers.

What took the Cadets so long?

[BOSMarcher]

Or like the 1996 Sunrisers.

One could say the 2010 Cadets did Procession of the Nobles, just like the 1969 Sunrisers.

What took the Cadets so long?

Definitely missing the point. The Cadets did not copy the entire idea behind the Sunrisers show. I have not seen the Sunrisers show, but I believe that to be an accurate statement. The Bucs, as good as the show was, copied many of the elements and ideas behind Phantoms 2008 show, with the music from Star.

Music gets played again, and I agree that new twists are good... then again, I have heard some complete rips of music played by some DCA groups of DCI groups. I cannot say I have heard the same the other way around. I know this comes as a sore spot for people on this forum, but the history is there. Source material is one thing, and originial ideas are others. I am not saying that the Bucs completely ripped their music from Star, but I am saying their show idea was not extremely original.

To the other poster naming off other already done shows, you are correct... those are not original ideas if they are done again either. I would say the same thing about a DCI group that comes out with a show called Voodoo next year or For Whom the Bell Tolls (or has a show with the same ideas). To be honest, I am seeing a lot more originality in Class A lately. The Open Class groups perform at a great level, ESPECIALLY for weekend only groups... I think that is why I get so frustrated with some of the rehashed ideas. I don't mind using music that has been done in order to do something different with it, but when it is the same music with a rehashed concept, it just is not creative.

[Fran Haring]

Definitely missing the point.

I disagree.

One example: The earlier poster referred to the Empire Statesmen, for all intents and purposes, of "copying" the Madison Scouts' City of Angels show.... simply because both corps played music from City of Angels for their programs those respective years.

If you actually watched both corps' programs, you would see that there is a lot of similar music (of course there is, since the programs are based on the SAME SHOW)... but the two corps' programs are two different "takes" on that source music. The Scouts did not treat the source music as a "trip though old Hollywood" the way the Statesmen did.

Maybe I'm a bit thin-skinned on this.... but it seems to me that there are any number of people willing to accuse DCA/all-age corps of "ripping off" material from DCI corps. The underlying premise is that DCI corps are the only ones capable of an original programming thought.

The DCI corps are/have been great at what they do, without question... but when it comes to the "cornering the originality market" premise, nothing could be further from the truth. Well... with the possible exception of Rep. Weiner's original explanation about those photos.

And bottom line..... ALL those corps...DCI, DCA, whoever... are "copying" to one degree or another from the original source material, unless a corps is performing music written just for them.

And who cares if it's "original" or not, especially if it's a program fans want to pay to see again and again?

A point that has been raised before: if "pushing the envelope" means "losing the audience" or not generating enough of a "wow... I'd pay to see that again" reaction... then to me, that's just bad programming... in an activity that relies on ticket sales to survive.

No one accuses the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra of "ripping off" the New York Philharmonic simply because the BSO is playing Beethoven's 9th Symphony... or whatever.... three years after the Philharmonic played the same piece. Why do so many drum corps people feel it's virtually taboo to perform a tune, or a show theme, that's already been done? It's only drum corps, for Pete's sake.... not some ultra-highbrow art form.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Fran Haring

[BOSMarcher]

I disagree.

One example: The earlier poster referred to the Empire Statesmen, for all intents and purposes, of "copying" the Madison Scouts' City of Angels show.... simply because both corps played music from City of Angels for their programs those respective years.

If you actually watched both corps' programs, you would see that there is a lot of similar music (of course there is, since the programs are based on the SAME SHOW)... but the two corps' programs are two different "takes" on that source music. The Scouts did not treat the source music as a "trip though old Hollywood" the way the Statesmen did.

Maybe I'm a bit thin-skinned on this.... but it seems to me that there are any number of people willing to accuse DCA/all-age corps of "ripping off" material from DCI corps. The underlying premise is that DCI corps are the only ones capable of an original programming thought.

The DCI corps are/have been great at what they do, without question... but when it comes to the "cornering the originality market" premise, nothing could be further from the truth. Well... with the possible exception of Rep. Weiner's original explanation about those photos.

And bottom line..... ALL those corps...DCI, DCA, whoever... are "copying" to one degree or another from the original source material, unless a corps is performing music written just for them.

And who cares if it's "original" or not, especially if it's a program fans want to pay to see again and again?

A point that has been raised before: if "pushing the envelope" means "losing the audience" or not generating enough of a "wow... I'd pay to see that again" reaction... then to me, that's just bad programming... in an activity that relies on ticket sales to survive.

No one accuses the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra of "ripping off" the New York Philharmonic simply because the BSO is playing Beethoven's 9th Symphony... or whatever.... three years after the Philharmonic played the same piece. Why do so many drum corps people feel it's virtually taboo to perform a tune, or a show theme, that's already been done? It's only drum corps, for Pete's sake.... not some ultra-highbrow art form.

You quoted me saying that my point is being missed, and then explained how choosing the same music is not ripping off a show that has already been done.

My point is still being missed. I am not talking about music (as was stated a couple of posts back). I am talking about show design. Regardless, it is my opinion that if you take the idea of another corps (not the music, because that is no ones idea but the composer) and copy most of its elements to create your show, that is not pushing the envelope of show design. You may push it in quality or in demand, but not in original thought. I tried to make it clear in my other posts that I was not talking about music necessarily, but I must not have been clear on making that point.

Regardless of whether people in DCA want to believe it or not, there is a reason for the perception that people have about DCA copying DCI. I do not agree to the same degree that others do, but I think there is a reason for this perception.

For the record, the Statesmen "City of Angels" reference is not what I was meaning... the Bucs Rome idea is what I was meaning. Another idea would be Phantom of the Opera. Great show, but not original or particularly creative. Also, MBI's Caravan show was mentioned, but they used a good deal of source material that was not used in the other shows that have used that music.

Edited June 14, 2011 by BOSMarcher

[Fran Haring]

My point is still being missed. I am not talking about music (as was stated a couple of posts back). I am talking about show design. Regardless, it is my opinion that if you take the idea of another corps (not the music, because that is no ones idea but the composer) and copy most of its elements to create your show, that is not pushing the envelope of show design.

Regardless of whether people in DCA want to believe it or not, there is a reason for the perception that people have about DCA copying DCI. I do not agree to the same degree that others do, but I think there is a reason for this perception.

For the record, the Statesmen "City of Angels" reference is not what I was meaning... the Bucs Rome idea is what I was meaning. Another idea would be Phantom of the Opera. Great show, but not original or particularly creative.

I think I do understand your point... and I do not disagree with you at all about the DCI/DCA perception. It is there, whether any of us wants to admit it or not. I just don't think it's a fair perception, necessarily.

I don't think that any DCA staff...... the Buccaneers and several other corps in particular.... sits down and actively considers a wholesale lifting of all or part of a DCI corps' show design.

Heck... even if they did, what difference does it make in the grand scheme of things? If something works, use it. Some purists may sniff and turn up their noses... but if the cash register is ringing, then I will walk by their turned-up noses and chuckle a little, on my way to the bank.

I remember when the Statesmen did their version of Phantom of the Opera. One of their staffers told me the staff purposely did not watch the Vanguard's versions of that show.... because they did not want to copy the Vanguard's design.

And history has shown that the opposite is true, too. Gail Royer used the Yankee Rebels' "Requiem for an Era" production from 1969/early 70s as his inspiration for the Vanguard's "Young Person's Guide" production a few years later.... but even though the concept of the split corps/multiple tempos was borrowed, the design was completely different.

Let's face it. Something like Phantom of the Opera.... there really isn't that much any drum corps can do to craft an "original" design out of that. The story is the story. If you try to alter the basic story to a degree that the storyline is more or less skewed, just for the sake of being "original"..... then it wouldn't be Phantom of the Opera.

[TomMoore]

Yowza!