Why are they getting docked?

[actucker]

IMO I don't think the design of SCV's show regarding percussion is hurting htme at all. Anyone saying they don't have a demanding book, IMHO, is completely off base. However, I do think that in designing the show, there are moments that were intended to be very intense. The percussion is maxing those moments out. However, the horns are not performing them at the same level, and when the perc. is really going for it and achieving a ff moment, the horns are only achieving a mf, thus perhaps to the perc judge, the perc is overbalancing a lot of the time. Maybe this is hurting the musicality score? They have been very dominant in execution. Maybe the weaker brass line is hurting them in that regard. Just some thoughts.

Nobody is saying the book isn't demanding at all. However, to think that the book is as demanding as groups like the Cavaliers, Cadets, or Blue Devils is just choosing to ignore the facts. The vocabulary is much more limited in SCV's book.

And again, I'm not saying that they aren't playing well, or don't deserve to score well. I'm only trying to explain why they aren't scoring as well as other groups. It is, in fact, a demand issue.

[Madrid]

Nobody is saying the book isn't demanding at all. However, to think that the book is as demanding as groups like the Cavaliers, Cadets, or Blue Devils is just choosing to ignore the facts. The vocabulary is much more limited in SCV's book.

And again, I'm not saying that they aren't playing well, or don't deserve to score well. I'm only trying to explain why they aren't scoring as well as other groups. It is, in fact, a demand issue.

It sort of seems as if you're saying that the group who plays the most notes should, by default, win.

[actucker]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not even saying that I don't like what SCV is doing. I love the book, and love what it does for the show.

Ideally, judges look for a balance between what you're attempting and what you're executing. That's why you often see groups come out at the beginning of the season with a really ambitious book, and at the end of the season they have watered it down to something that they can execute well.

I also don't equate the number of notes to demand. There is way more to it than that. There is physical demand (how fast can you play), but there's also mental/intellectual demand (complex polyrhythm, mixed meters, hand speed changes, technique changes etc). There is also simultaneous responsibility (movement paired with playing, complex listening environments etc).

SCV has a more demanding book than most, but not quite as demanding as the groups that are beating them. They are performing their book at a high level, and have been most of the year, which is why they were winning drums early, but as the season gets later, the groups ahead of them are starting to distance themselves as they start to execute their books on the same level.

[nemesiscorps]

The fact is, the sheets are set up a certain way, but there is way more information that goes into judging a group than what is on that sheet. That's why those judges go through intense training seminars and so forth.

I think these are examples of largely accepted assumptions that few people can actually articulate in detail, from a knowledge-based, factual foundation.

Ideally, what you suggest is what we want and expect, be we don't really know what those "way more information that goes into judging a group than what is on that sheet" details are, or really what the "intense seminars and so forth" are either. Instead, as spectators we're to suspend judgement, as well as forgo relying on our own education, training and experience, and simply accept the "way more information" apparently learned at these "intense seminars and so forth," as unquestionably reliable and valid evaluations.

Maybe as consumers of Marching Music's Major League events, we should demand more information regarding how (and what) makes an adjudicator this great thing that we rely on to evaluate (and according to others, rank) these corps.

[Madbass4]

I'm hoping this will be my final post on this thread, 'cause I'm sure I've exhausted my words on the subject.

I don't want to come off as attacking other groups playing out there that are scoring higher than SCV right now - but after watching numerous videos on the Site That Shall Not Be Named, it's no wonder there are angry people from Santa Clara right now, especially after the latest percussion victory in Arkansas tonight (by the way, congratulations Cadets!).

But although I extend a congratulations to them - my harsh and simple criticism is this. In comparison to the two drumlines they just beat (The Cavaliers and Santa Clara Vanguard) - I find their arrangement much more simple and less demanding, and their performance not exceptionally clean. Now of course, I wasn't in Arkansas, so I can't say that my criticism is of their most recent performance tonight. What I can say (and I hope I'm not the only one in thinking this) is that the drumline I want to see win the trophy is NOT the drumline who all of a sudden drums the best show of the DCI league during all 3 Prelims nights. I want it to be the drumline who plays the best consistently from NIGHT TO NIGHT, SHOW TO SHOW. We don't need scores and opinions from people in green polo shirts to know ourselves who the best is. The people who knew better knew in 2006 that Phantom Regiment was untouchable. They knew better in 2010 as well. They knew in 2003 that The Cadets were untouchable (during a summer of some GREAT drumlines). With the previous argument that SCV hasn't gotten any worse, AND that demand of the book has no part in the judgment of the percussion caption (but apparently it does behind closed doors) - I'm just gonna go ahead and complete my criticism and opinion that I think the 2011 Cadets are not better than the 2011 Santa Clara Vanguard or Cavaliers, end of story. I've seen the videos, I've seen them live in Minneapolis, and if they execute their performance during prelims better than every drumline in the league, then they've earned their Sanford trophy. But the people who know better know who's the best.

I'm not attacking Blue Devils either - but I would hate to see this season as another repeat of 2007. I like my DCI seasons to center more around honesty in the percussion category. Am I alone on this?

If you wanna reply to me, I suggest sending me a private message. I don't really care for crowding this thread with my super long posts. I like to write, but I'm still considerate.

[MalEightball]

One thing I appreciated when I transferred to Rennick's line (bassline) was that we never repeated the same phrase over again. It's not that there's a lack of anything like an Ostinato or anything like that, it's just that his writing is always unique, always exploratory (and I'd call it more classical than contemporary music), and never repetitive. Other lines can play different styles (pop, rock, etc.) where it's required to play the same phrase for the length of twelve bars - but you never have that with Rennick's writing. The Cavaliers (a great drumline this summer, by the way - a credit to their race, lol) have a lot of good things in their book, but if they're playing a lot of the same thing over and over again (NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT) - - I am inclined to enjoy SCV's book more (which is apparently the easiest book in DCI to some naysayers, lol). Maybe it's something that needs to be studied, I don't know. What do the majority of classically trained musicians think about Rennick's book, compared to the drummers that are from a pop music background? Do they like Rennick's writing over the Devs, or the Cavies, or Crown? Do they not?

Whatever it is, Paul enjoys writing what he wants, and he knows how to make a musician better, which is why so many "follow" him. (The people that followed him to SCV from top-6 drum corps other than PR should account for that, as well as over the years, i.e. drummers from Cavaliers and Bluecoats transferring to PR, etc. etc. etc.). No matter how "easy" the beats will be, the performers will enjoy the experience because they chose to come to get better (especially if they're music majors in college), they trust Paul to do it, and they play cleaner than a lot of their competition in the activity, regardless of scores (which is sad, but that's the reason this thread was created, I suppose).

I'm a classically trained musician, and I like Cavaliers/Crown/Devs writing over SCV's this summer. There's also plenty of music majors who go to a group like Cavaliers to play one of the most demanding books in DCI and develop their skills as a musician. I really doubt there's any more people who return to Paul Rennick's programs than at say cavaliers or Blue Devils. Truth of the matter is, MOST drum corps members think that their program does things the right way.

[steeldrum]

Congrats to the Cadets drumline for the win last night, and I really do appreciate their books this year and love the show. But I'm curious as to how the judge fairly judges the Cadets drumline when the line is split in two, on opposite sides of the field, playing independently from each other for much of the show. The judge can't judge both lines (and the pit) at the same time. And isn't it easier to clean two independent smaller lines with 4 snares, 2 tenors and 3 basses, with a lot of non-playing by one side while the other side plays? Compare this to the other top lines that have the full line playing for most of the show together.

[CheezMaster]

People don't realize how hard Vanguard's book is simply because of these reasons:

1. Paul Rennick's books have a very distinct sound. When you hear a Paul book, you know it's a Paul book. Now that these books have been so prominent for so long, people are just getting sick of hearing them (I don't at all, but I've heard this numerous times).... But can you blame him for writing similar books with the success he has had? No. He writes a book that he knows will be attainable by the players early on and will fit PERFECTLY with the drum corps. (There are some questionable orchestrations with some of the groups beating SCV at the moment). This the reason SCV came out slammin' this year at the first show. Now does THAT make it an easy book? No. The players in his lines train literally to be in THAT line. I guarantee you none of them would want to go anywhere else....not in a heart beat. It's almost like a business. Most people go there to stay, and know how to play Paul's beats about as well as they know how to breathe.

2. The book is not overtly showy. Yes, the Blue Devils probably play more back sticks and flam drags than SCV... (the attempt is there!) But from the videos i have seen they can't play one triplet roll together (achievement is not). Whereas the SCV drumline has a hard time to not play a triplet roll together. Why write stuff that is going to be dirty till finals week? This book is a modest book that stays true to the activity. It's not as "innovative" (... I guess back sticks and flam drags and decrescendo rim shots are innovative now) as others but it never goes out of it's way to have a pretentious vibe to it. They have a few super clean drum breaks (...can't complain about that, seems like this is the first year there ever have been complaints about super clean drum breaks!) and it orchestrates with the hornline better than any other drum corps this year.... it's actually a genius book!!! Did Mahler ever write back sticks or have the drummers hang upside down when they played??? NO! And he would have been laughed at is he did.

3. People don't realize but playing spaces the way SCV does is actually a lot harder than people think. It's easy to ram like Crown does because there is no space at all! Did you ever think that less is more?!?! Remember that old saying? Because I barely do. Also - I dare someone to count the flams or inverts in the show and compare to one of these lines they are competing with. I will guarantee there are just as many!!!

If you think that these other drumlines are better or cleaner than SCV, I'm terribly sorry to tell you that you are wrong. Clean is clean, and dirty is dirty, and from what I've seen of the drum lines this year (and believe I've looked CLOSE), there is not one drum line playing with the touch, accuracy, balance or just straight up crunchy clean sound as this drumline. STOP BLAMING THE BOOK! IT'S REALLY HARD! How much easier really could it be to these other books?

Not even as a drum corps alum, but a MUSICIAN, SCV is the cleanest, and their book is the tastiest, most well fit book in the activity. If you want to just "see another drumline win because Paul's lines have been winning so much," then you need to get over it. Clean is better than dirty and that's that.

Here's a question.... What made last year's Phantom book so much harder than this one? If anyone even thinks so.... I think it is just as hard or even harder than last year's book... And they're playing just as clean as last year???? Everybody RAVED about last year's drumline and they won and this one is getting fifth and no hype...But the level is the same!!!! Are our ears lying to us?!?! Are we being brainwashed by DCI judges?!?!? Riddle me that...?!?!?!

Edited July 30, 2011 by CheezMaster

[wackywords]

People don't realize how hard Vanguard's book is simply because of these reasons:

1. Paul Rennick's books have a very distinct sound. When you hear a Paul book, you know it's a Paul book. Now that these books have been so prominent for so long, people are just getting sick of hearing them (I don't at all, but I've heard this numerous times).... But can you blame him for writing similar books with the success he has had? No. He writes a book that he knows will be attainable by the players early on and will fit PERFECTLY with the drum corps. (There are some questionable orchestrations with some of the groups beating SCV at the moment). This the reason SCV came out slammin' this year at the first show. Now does THAT make it an easy book? No. The players in his lines train literally to be in THAT line. I guarantee you none of them would want to go anywhere else....not in a heart beat. It's almost like a business. Most people go there to stay, and know how to play Paul's beats about as well as they know how to breathe.

2. The book is not overtly showy. Yes, the Blue Devils probably play more back sticks and flam drags than SCV... (the attempt is there!) But from the videos i have seen they can't play one triplet roll together (achievement is not). Whereas the SCV drumline has a hard time to not play a triplet roll together. Why write stuff that is going to be dirty till finals week? This book is a modest book that stays true to the activity. It's not as "innovative" (... I guess back sticks and flam drags and decrescendo rim shots are innovative now) as others but it never goes out of it's way to have a pretentious vibe to it. They have a few super clean drum breaks (...can't complain about that, seems like this is the first year there ever have been complaints about super clean drum breaks!) and it orchestrates with the hornline better than any other drum corps this year.... it's actually a genius book!!! Did Mahler ever write back sticks or have the drummers hang upside down when they played??? NO! And he would have been laughed at is he did.

3. People don't realize but playing spaces the way SCV does is actually a lot harder than people think. It's easy to ram like Crown does because there is no space at all! Did you ever think that less is more?!?! Remember that old saying? Because I barely do. Also - I dare someone to count the flams or inverts in the show and compare to one of these lines they are competing with. I will guarantee there are just as many!!!

If you think that these other drumlines are better or cleaner than SCV, I'm terribly sorry to tell you that you are wrong. Clean is clean, and dirty is dirty, and from what I've seen of the drum lines this year (and believe I've looked CLOSE), there is not one drum line playing with the touch, accuracy, balance or just straight up crunchy clean sound as this drumline. STOP BLAMING THE BOOK! IT'S REALLY HARD! How much easier really could it be to these other books?

Not even as a drum corps alum, but a MUSICIAN, SCV is the cleanest, and their book is the tastiest, most well fit book in the activity. If you want to just "see another drumline win because Paul's lines have been winning so much," then you need to get over it. Clean is better than dirty and that's that.

Here's a question.... What made last year's Phantom book so much harder than this one? If anyone even thinks so.... I think it is just as hard or even harder than last year's book... And they're playing just as clean as last year???? Everybody RAVED about last year's drumline and they won and this one is getting fifth and no hype...But the level is the same!!!! Are our ears lying to us?!?! Are we being brainwashed by DCI judges?!?!? Riddle me that...?!?!?!

PERFECT post.

One section that sticks out in my brain is in the closer when there is a horn feature leading to the staircase section with the guard. there are only a few notes in there but it fits AMAZINGLY with the horn part! I was soooo turned off when i heard this long snare ram in the middle of crowns horn feature in the beginning of their show. why would you write that on top of a horn feature?!?! makes no sense whatsoever.

I feel that the judges have it out for paul and any line that he teaches. Jealousy? i dunno.

Go SCV percussion. you guys are the best for 2011

[sodakphan]

I don't get it. The percussion score variance from Minneapolis to Atlanta (2 weeks) is saying something, but I'm not sure what. Of the top 7 corps, SCV's percussion score has improved only 1.6 points (Mpls 16.9; Atl 18.5), while the 6 corps ahead of them improved by a wider margin from Minneapolis to Atlanta:

Crown +2.4

Blue Devils +2.3

Cadets +2.3

Blue Coats +2.1

Phantom Reg +2.0

Cavies +1.9

SCV +1.6

Given what I'm reading on this topic thread and in other places, I'm really trying hard not to conclude slotting is going on. SCV has gone on to the field early in both these shows, and I know this hurts, but I still believe in their musicality and being super "clean."

Again, I'm trying to understand the math above. Most of you are more knowledgable on this than I, but I will tell you this: a snare player I know very well in the SCV battery says the book is tougher than last year's PR book. He was there, too. I know, I know, maybe everybody else's music is superior to or more demanding than SCV's. I, for one, am not convinced that's true.