euponitone Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 The last number of posts illustrate my point: it's all equally demanding. We all *find* demand wherever we look, and what we like, and those corps for which we honk, always seems to end up being the most "demanding" thing on the field. All we need is rose colored glasses, or mirrors, to magically make anything twice as risky and demanding. Voila. As I've said: visual sleight-of-hand ain't demand. Staging one section while others do nothing particularly demanding isn't great design, it's just cleverly managing risk. It's not making what's really hard look easy, which is virtuosity. It's making what's easier look harder, which is DCI these days. Without more objective standards for evaluating demand, demand effectively means nothing, because it's all relative. I disagree with your overall premise "demand is all relative, its all equally demanding", which is hilarious, because i pretty much agree with everything else you say. People say BD is just that good that they make it look easy .... FALSE! They want it to look hard...just like everyone else. Every corps does it - that much we can agree on. What we dont agree on i guess is that everybody does it equally, and that all 'visual sleight-of-hands' are essentially equal. Look, i will go with you to this point - trying to actually 'judge' this thing is pretty pointless, and you are right that bias will come into play. It's a nightmare to objectively evaluate difficulty, and pulling out a stopwatch and graphing paper, isn't going to help (although it leads to some interesting debates). Still, i dont think its a logical conclusion to say that 'because all corps use tricks to make things seem more impressive then they are...all corps demand is basically the same'. It's like an electron - you know its there, you can try and measure it, but you can never prove exactly where it is... (ok...so physics isn't really my strong suit - there's a reason i switched to music 8 years ago....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I absolutely agree with your first sentence, disagree with your second. I think every corps has developed techniques to give the illusion of greater demand that is perhaps there. Such as one portion of the hornline does something fantastic visually while another section parks and wails out a very difficult phrase. It is not really an illusion as we are viewing visual demand and musical demand, but the simultaneous on the individual performer is lessened. I think this has been born out of necessity given what the kids are being asked to do and I think such design can be very effective. Corps do it to varying degrees. The use of demand to achieve effect needs to be balanced with the ability to execute. I would also agree with the thought process that in recent years BDs programs have not been as visually demanding as others. However, in my opinion, their demand has been sufficient to achieve great effect and their execution has been outstanding. I think they have earned everything they have achieved. I understand fans saying Cadets should've won, Cavies should've won, Crown isn't getting enough credit, etc. We all have opinions, but to say you are outraged because corps x did not win at this level is laughable at best. First, very few of us (certainly not me) are really qualified to adjudicate our own caption let alone the summation of all captions. In a year like this we are clearly splitting hairs when assessing the difference between BD, Cadets, Cavies, and Crown. Have an opinion for sure, but outrage? I don't get it. Yes, yes, and yes. For the first time in a while, I am reading some things in this debate I can actually get on board with from both sides. Maybe the smart people only come out at night?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjazz Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Part of me thinks it would be nice if DCI took the competitive aspect out of the activity. Imagine your average touring rock show -- headliner, maybe a minor national act, and one or two locals that probably aren't in that league (yet). But everyone enjoys the show, at least for the most part. Everyone understands why the locals aren't as polished or "talented" as the headliner. But that's not going to happen. The audience "demands" (ha!) competition. Here's where things have gone sideways, in my opinion. When I marched, there was great heartburn over the corps with big GE that didn't finish high. "How can Madison get the biggest crowd response but never win???" Most corps of that ilk just gave in and understood that the things they were trying to maximize were not the things the judges would reward. (Never mind that at least some of the most "effective" corps couldn't have possibly matched up to the ones nailing particular captions from a pure talent perspective.) But now . . . now . . . it seems that things have changed. Whereas corps used to be (effectively) told "it's not audience reaction, it's demand and execution", we are now in an era of "it's demand and execution, but we aren't actually going to reward demand". That's not right. You cannot look at BD's show with any sort of an experienced eye and detect "demand" of the level that Cadets and Cavaliers are fielding. It's just not there. Don't reward them as if it is. Change the judging criteria if need be, but let's be honest, we are moving towards a judging protocol where the shows we WISHED were rewarded in the 80s are now actually BEING rewarded, yet the criteria don't really reflect such a scoring system. I hate this double-secret "oh, you're just not sophisticated enough to detect the demand in BD's show" mindset. Come on. If it can't be detected from the stands, it's not there. Let's not parse every ENSEMBLE into individual groups and fail to ever judge the ENSEMBLE. Don't #### on our legs and tell us it's raining. It's not. We're in a severe drought . . . have you heard? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Part of me thinks it would be nice if DCI took the competitive aspect out of the activity. Imagine your average touring rock show -- headliner, maybe a minor national act, and one or two locals that probably aren't in that league (yet). But everyone enjoys the show, at least for the most part. Everyone understands why the locals aren't as polished or "talented" as the headliner. But that's not going to happen. The audience "demands" (ha!) competition. Here's where things have gone sideways, in my opinion. When I marched, there was great heartburn over the corps with big GE that didn't finish high. "How can Madison get the biggest crowd response but never win???" Most corps of that ilk just gave in and understood that the things they were trying to maximize were not the things the judges would reward. (Never mind that at least some of the most "effective" corps couldn't have possibly matched up to the ones nailing particular captions from a pure talent perspective.) But now . . . now . . . it seems that things have changed. Whereas corps used to be (effectively) told "it's not audience reaction, it's demand and execution", we are now in an era of "it's demand and execution, but we aren't actually going to reward demand". That's not right. You cannot look at BD's show with any sort of an experienced eye and detect "demand" of the level that Cadets and Cavaliers are fielding. It's just not there. Don't reward them as if it is. Change the judging criteria if need be, but let's be honest, we are moving towards a judging protocol where the shows we WISHED were rewarded in the 80s are now actually BEING rewarded, yet the criteria don't really reflect such a scoring system. I hate this double-secret "oh, you're just not sophisticated enough to detect the demand in BD's show" mindset. Come on. If it can't be detected from the stands, it's not there. Let's not parse every ENSEMBLE into individual groups and fail to ever judge the ENSEMBLE. Don't #### on our legs and tell us it's raining. It's not. We're in a severe drought . . . have you heard? And we were going so well... I'm generally on your side of this debate, but not with this post....sorry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjazz Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 And we were going so well... I'm generally on your side of this debate, but not with this post....sorry OK, fair enough. Where do you disagree? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 OK, fair enough. Where do you disagree? Just a bit too 'black and white' for my tastes - the notion that any ol' person can look at bd's show and detect that its levels below cadets and cavies. Obviously a lot of trained people have decided it is on their level, and while I dont always agree with them, their opinion counts for something. Also, the 'if it cant be detected from the stands, it isn't there' - yeah, not buying that. Who cant detect it from the stands? Some people can. Do they get a lot of the ooo and aahhhh moments that other groups get, no, not quite the same number, but plenty of folks are plenty impressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjazz Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 But BD literally has minutes of show with LITTLE to NO demand for the vast majority of their corps. It's as if nobody wants to acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes. Well, guess what, the Emperor is buck naked. Why are some folks so unwilling to accept this as truth? I think it would be more embarrassing to argue otherwise than to just say "yeah, you're right'. They have a HS band drill. It's ridiculously easy. It should not be rewarded . . . period. I don't care how beautiful their hornline plays, they are not being physically challenged.. Why pretend they are? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 But BD literally has minutes of show with LITTLE to NO demand for the vast majority of their corps. It's as if nobody wants to acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes. Well, guess what, the Emperor is buck naked. Why are some folks so unwilling to accept this as truth? I think it would be more embarrassing to argue otherwise than to just say "yeah, you're right'. They have a HS band drill. It's ridiculously easy. It should not be rewarded . . . period. I don't care how beautiful their hornline plays, they are not being physically challenged.. Why pretend they are? I just watched them 7 hours ago - if that is a high school band drill, then my name is George Zingali. Little to No demand? Truth? Not physically challenged...at all? Really? Maybe they have LESS physical demand that the other top groups. Maybe they dont move quite as much. Whether you view it as such or not, when you speak in such absolutes and sweeping generalizations, you pretty much kill any chance of intelligent debate. Its like saying "Groups A is the best ever, and Group B is the scum of the universe and I hate them but they do this one thing ok i guess. Discuss." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engsubman Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Dear Mr. Zingali, Really!, I watched the BD show in Atlanta and focused on the drill. It was just as programmed. The demand, complexity, or difficulty of the drill was without any doubt whatsoever on the same level as a majority of the high school shows that I have seen. That's where I got the ideas for our drill ! Thanks for drinking our Kool Aid ! DG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 someday if i watch enough drum corps, will I too be able to judge all captions including the performance captions you have to be on the field to judge? Gosh I hope so because it seems I am not getting enough out of drum corps by letting the judges do their jobs and by me doing mine as a fan, which is to cheer, not jeer and it is to show the kids that they come from great stock rather than showing them what a bitter baby I can be from my anonymous spot within the stands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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