Demand means nothing

[AlexL]

I'm note sure what your point is, or if we disagree on anything, but my point is this: judges are looking for effect, artistry, expression, and performance

quality as primary concerns. Demand is secondary, certainly a means to an end but not the end itself. They most certainly do not just add up the difficulty

level of a show and score it based on that as the only criteria.

But are they doing so in the captions in which theyre supposed to be doing that? We have effect judges for effect, and other judges for performance captions, etc. Its not like we have 10 judges who all judge a show's overall effectiveness.

[Jeff Ream]

Good grief.

People complained about BD's narration and BD abandoned it after ONE YEAR.

People complained about BD's non melodic music and BD came out with a melodic show.

People complained about the sound of Dynasty drums and horns and BD went with King and Pearl.

The goal posts keep moving. People will always find the something to complain about. People complain

that shows emphasize drill over music, then BD does a show that emphasizes music and people complain

about too simple a drill. Some people love the music and hate the mirrors. Some people love the mirrors

and hate the music.

I have no doubt that BD will abandon props soon. But rest assured people will find something else to complain about.

As difficult as it may be to believe, BD has many, many, many fans. I don't know exactly how many people love BD or how many

people hate BD or exactly why. But I do know that BD has one of the biggest fan bases in the entire activity.

Why don't you guys form a committee and give BD a list of demands so they can do exactly what you want? I doubt you

could reach a consensus, but even if you did I doubt that would make everyone love BD.

ok here's my list. 1986, no props

(if they wont do that, i'll take 88 or 94)

[jjeffeory]

Good grief.

People complained about BD's narration and BD abandoned it after ONE YEAR.

People complained about BD's non melodic music and BD came out with a melodic show.

People complained about the sound of Dynasty drums and horns and BD went with King and Pearl.

The goal posts keep moving. People will always find the something to complain about. People complain

that shows emphasize drill over music, then BD does a show that emphasizes music and people complain

about too simple a drill. Some people love the music and hate the mirrors. Some people love the mirrors

and hate the music.

I have no doubt that BD will abandon props soon. But rest assured people will find something else to complain about.

As difficult as it may be to believe, BD has many, many, many fans. I don't know exactly how many people love BD or how many

people hate BD or exactly why. But I do know that BD has one of the biggest fan bases in the entire activity.

Why don't you guys form a committee and give BD a list of demands so they can do exactly what you want? I doubt you

could reach a consensus, but even if you did I doubt that would make everyone love BD.

That's SO melodramatic! Thanks for the laugh!

[saxfreq1128]

It's like that with every corps! The problem is, it seems like some of the BD fans can't seem to recognize that it happens to every corps. People complained about Cavaliers not playing loud, and they come and blow the walls down. People complain about Cadet's narration, and they give us West Side Story. People complained about Madison losing it's identity, and they bring out Slaughter on 10th Avenue. It happens to every corps.

No one is going to love every corps, every year. But until the fans of every corps can grow a little thicker skin, and learn that criticism and comments are just that, not personal attacks against the corps and kids, these kinds of things will happen every year like clockwork. Everyone has different opinions, it doesn't mean that they "hate" the corps, or are "jealous" of their success, it's because they find something in the show that they do not enjoy.

It doesn't quite happen to every corps, because not every corps wins. And what really fuels the flame for a lot of the criticism of BD around here isn't just the fact of people not liking their shows; it's the fact that BD consistently wins with shows many/some people don't like.

I think that factor makes a huge difference. If CC were to have won every year from 2008 onward, let's say, the tone of peoples' complaints about CC would be slightly different. Their endearing design excesses would become a lot more of a problem. Instead of a conversation about demand and DCI, we'd be having a conversation about everyone's least favorite flavor of cheese and how certain flavors are going to ruin the activity.

Not a dig against CC. Also not a defense of BD. My point is that a corps' design philosophy is only really threatening, it seems, when they're winning. Response to the Cavs taught us that much last decade.

Edited August 3, 2011 by saxfreq1128

[tja273]

So you are totally cool with, from 3:45 on the atlanta feed to 7:30, BD's show being an extended perc/guard feature with no simultaneous marching and playing done by the Brass? No way that get's top visual scores in rep.

Wow! Thank you for pointing me to this portion of the show. I am not a big "percussion" guy, but the first part of the section you referenced is the "drum solo" portion of the show (much like the Cadets potion where the hornline sets down their horns and "battles" between the two sides). What the drum line is doing while moving (simultaneous demand?) is incredible. Also note how the musical portion of this section is passed between the pit, the field drums and the low brass located backfield. This may not get your attention, but it is a "wow moment" for me.

Of course, when the big "guard moment" happens here, the VOD spends half the time on the horn line. Watch the high cam, if you still have access...The guard action through this last part of the section you referenced is incredible.

This is what I think BD does better than anyone else...staging...section features...Guard, percussion, horn line...each has its moment in the show. For the individual captions (Guard, Brass, percussion), they are the masters (as reflected by the scores). They may still have some work to do in the effect categories (combination of all of these pieces), but they are clearly listening to the judges critique in these area and making adjustments to match. It will be a tough road for anyone to pass them from now to the middle of August.

[fsubone]

It doesn't quite happen to every corps, because not every corps wins. And what really fuels the flame for a lot of the criticism of BD around here isn't just the fact of people not liking their shows; it's the fact that BD consistently wins with shows many/some people don't like.

But you know that it's only a VERY small portion of the audience feels like that. I haven't liked their programming the last couple of years. They could in 1st, 12th, 23rd, I don't care, still wouldn't like the show. I do want to see them put out a show that's actually over the member's heads, and they have to work all season to clean, then have them do like they have been doing, where they can just insanely execute an easier show.

And people complained about the Cadets when they weren't winning. Another example, people have been complaining about Glassmen's lame synth patches, and they're barely knocking on Finals. Or Cascades box props, and they're ranked 22nd. It's every corps, as much as people like pretend it isn't. Victory doesn't mean as much as programming, but it seems like a lot of the BD homer crowd seems to think it's opposite, that there's no way it could be the programming, it has to be jealous because they win.

And coming from a guy with a ring, I'd rather have people screaming and cheering than crickets chirping and a ring, but that's just me....

[fsubone]

Just have one question though about the Blue Devils, and all corps in general. Are the corps given access to the judge's sheets, in order to help their shows out? Can a design staff just look at the sheet, and then write down what they're going to do based on that sheet? I know people have claimed BD is doing this, but is it true for any corps?

[saxfreq1128]

One I don't see mentioned often is field spread (both end zone to end zone and sideline to sideline). It is difficult enough to keep the timing right with everyone playing. Even more difficult is when the melody is passed from front to back, side to side, etc. In the 80's we just hosed the parts like this or limited who actually played when outside the 20 yard line. Today, they clean it. It doesn't get the ooohs and ahhhs like fast and/or loud gets, but the judges are likely to recognize how difficult this can be.

I agree. I think we all just need to live with the fact that BD, Cavs, Cadets, et al all have radically different design philosophies, and that it isn't up to the judges to anoint the 'best' philosophy -- they're all great -- but rather to reward the corps that play that philosophy out most effectively.

BD's difficulty is almost always at the level of the ensemble. All of their shows since at least 08 have been an ensemble nightmare waiting to happen / an ensemble nightmare that usually has happened, until they got it right. I think their designers get off on setting weird conceptual challenges for themselves and thinking themselves out of those challenges -- not unlike Sacktig, this year, and his dual-uniform mathematics.

re: BD, Who else would be crazy enough to place a glass wall between their higher and lower brass during the main portion of a postmodern jazz ballad? Who else would have a 40-person guard perform with loud, zebra-striped swing flags in front of a wall of mirrors, where every small mistake is (literally) doubled (ie, from 2 mistakes to 4, from 40 mistakes to 80 -- assuming each person was only being reflected in one mirror, which is actually not true)? The ensemble responsibility in these kinds of moments is daunting.I think in all the complaining about the mirrors (to name an example), people tended to overlook the basic fact of what mirrors do: reflect things. Duplicate things. Including mistakes. It was a genuine risk by a design team that, like its competitive peers, thrives on risks.

When it comes to evaluating difficulty, I think we should start thinking less exclusively about the stresses placed on individual members and make room to think about the stresses put on the corps as a unit, deemphasizing a tabulation of how many people are jazz running how often and emphasizing big picture conceptual difficulty. BD's staff does. The judges do. We should, too. We will even see new things to appreciate about the Cadets, Cavs, etc. when we do.

[saxfreq1128]

But you know that it's only a VERY small portion of the audience feels like that. I haven't liked their programming the last couple of years. They could in 1st, 12th, 23rd, I don't care, still wouldn't like the show. I do want to see them put out a show that's actually over the member's heads, and they have to work all season to clean, then have them do like they have been doing, where they can just insanely execute an easier show.

See what you're saying, but not quite what I was getting at. I'm not really talking about the jealousy thing, which, like you, I'm skeptical of.

I'm talking about the fact that we tend to scrutinize champions differently than everyone else. And if a design philosophy that we can't really get with happens to be winning over and over again, it is that much more offensive, because it feels like that unappealing strategy is being celebrated by the judging community. Countless times we've read on this very site that people are afraid of the activity "going in the direction" of BD -- just like they were afraid that the activity's emphasis on musical melody would disappear thanks to the Cavies, once upon a time. Would people be quite so worried if BD/Cavies weren't winning? NB: Cavies haven't been winning championships as much in recent years, and predictably, these concerns have been transferred over to BD.

People complained about the Cadets when they weren't winning because the Cadets were doing some pretty radical things. But they almost won in 2007, and I think some people would've seen that as a victory for voiceovers, ie the coming of satan.

For many people, Bd's consistent winning 'means more' than the faulty design strategies of lower-place corps, because those lower-place corps are clearly not being rewarded for their faulty strategies, whereas the reverse appears to be true for BD.

Champions bear the brunt of a different kind of critique.

Edited August 3, 2011 by saxfreq1128

[fsubone]

Champions bear the brunt of a different kind of critique.

Yeah, that is true. Because at the top, there's always the discussions after the season of, "yeah, so and so got shafted out of that championship, what were the judges watching Finals week!?" But when someone in 14th gets shafted, there isn't a peep.

I think part of it is also that the most attention and exposure comes at the top. Not to derail the conversation, but look at the TOC this year. They realized more people come to the top corps, and hey, they had 2 sell-outs, and almost 3, before it got rained out. Kind of proves the point, that in every competition, people pay the most attention to the people at the top. Ask any person on the street to name 10 NBA teams or MLB teams, or even NFL, and you'll hear the same names come up every time. Lakers, Celtics, Yankees, Red Sox, Patriots, Packers, etc... Just one of those sad facts of life. People are trained to be constantly competing, so "save the best, forget the rest". But when we forget the lower corps, we relegate them to second-class status, and we see all of the corps jumping up to the top corps, because the members want to see the stands full, and get the recognition. But I try and support them all. At the two shows I went to, I showed up for the National Anthem, and only left my seat during intermission. And I plug into the webcasts from senior corps to encore, have to support everyone.