camel lips Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Agreed. But I wouldn't count the judges out either. Designers are putting out more complicated shows because judges are rewarding those programs more than the less sophisticated books. Its a vicious circle between designers and judges that also has incorporates a delicate balance of demand vs. achievement. And this is why I state that to get the reward from the judges sheets it requires a full rehersal sdchedule. If your putting a more sophisticated book together its GONNA require more rehersal time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Agreed. But I wouldn't count the judges out either. Designers are putting out more complicated shows because judges are rewarding those programs more than the less sophisticated books. Its a vicious circle between designers and judges that also has incorporates a delicate balance of demand vs. achievement. [Cue Jeff Ream smashing open doors as he runs to his computer] One could argue that if the current slate of judges were putting more emphasis on achievement than demand, today's shows would be vastly different. welllllll...... they put the emphasis on what is voted on by the membership for the sheets in use. And since each sheet is a 50/50 split in terms of demand and achievement. So you can't blame the judges....they don't create the sheets. And if you look, you will see cases of judges rewarding achievement with a number higher than the demand number. now could the system be tweaked to give more to achievement? Sure, but the corps have to design the sheets for the judges to use and get it passed at rules congress. I mean one thing I love about WGI is on the performance sheet, 25 of the 40 points goes to performance, 15 points to demand.....but that's because the membership there voted for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 And this is why I state that to get the reward from the judges sheets it requires a full rehersal sdchedule. If your putting a more sophisticated book together its GONNA require more rehersal time! not always. It's HOW you rehearse that really counts. I've seen corps out there that rehearse mad hours every year...and are mid pack at best. I know my last year marching, if it was a show weekend, we didn't rehearse Sunday, with the exception of finals. I still remember leaving the Waterbury show where corps were complaining about having to go home and rehearse the next day as we joked about going to a picnic. We beat those corps. Why? We showed up Friday night ready to go, the staff had the game plan in place, and from 8 PM Friday til the final run Saturday before we performed, we hit every item on the agenda with efficiency. So it can be done, and has. I know Brigs run also took this philosophy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 welllllll...... they put the emphasis on what is voted on by the membership for the sheets in use. And since each sheet is a 50/50 split in terms of demand and achievement. So you can't blame the judges....they don't create the sheets. And if you look, you will see cases of judges rewarding achievement with a number higher than the demand number. now could the system be tweaked to give more to achievement? Sure, but the corps have to design the sheets for the judges to use and get it passed at rules congress. In a weekend-only activity, achievement should be weighted more than demand. Demand makes for a good late-season product, in an activity with limited rehearsal time. But achievement makes for a better early-season product (important for show sponsors who want to sell tickets) and a strong late-season product. Just my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 In a weekend-only activity, achievement should be weighted more than demand. Demand makes for a good late-season product, in an activity with limited rehearsal time. But achievement makes for a better early-season product (important for show sponsors who want to sell tickets) and a strong late-season product. Just my opinion. Not disagreeing. But Ed is implying the judges reward demand over achievement. Wrong. The current system, voted on by the corps and designed by the corps is set up that as achievement grows, the calrity of the demand grows as well, unless you get to a point where you are outperforming your book. so don't blame the judges. they dont make the system, they follow it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulka Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 To piggy-back on what Jeff is saying about how a corps rehearses, I can give first-hand examples. The most floor-time sleep I ever got on tour was '95 and that year was kind of successful. I'd also be willing to bet Star United rehearses less than most other Mini Corps, we simply come prepared and rehearse efficiently. Crap... I just gave away the secret recipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishbugle Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Not disagreeing. But Ed is implying the judges reward demand over achievement. Wrong. The current system, voted on by the corps and designed by the corps is set up that as achievement grows, the calrity of the demand grows as well, unless you get to a point where you are outperforming your book. so don't blame the judges. they dont make the system, they follow it So perhaps the real issue than is the disconnect between the sheets and the judges. Far too often I hear of staff getting box 5 comments all over the tape and sheet, but a box 3 or box 4 score. In fact, I usually hear that from various, different corps at every show I attend. I'm sure we have all had similar experiences.... or maybe I'm just bad luck. I know it's hard for any individual to take time away from his/her family on a Saturday evening, spend hours critiquing these groups, only to have half your comments thrown back in your face by your piers in the late evening hours so I give the judging community a lot of credit. But it's also not fair to a group that if they put out a great performance worthy of a, lets say Box 4 score, but receive a mid-box 3 score. And the answer of: I made a mistake, better luck next weekend, or my personal favorite, I didn't know where the other groups would come in so I had to leave room, is unacceptable. Just my $.2' And just to reiterate, these opinions do not reflect any organization, simply my own. And we have gotten off topic too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Not disagreeing. But Ed is implying the judges reward demand over achievement. Wrong. The current system, voted on by the corps and designed by the corps is set up that as achievement grows, the calrity of the demand grows as well, unless you get to a point where you are outperforming your book. so don't blame the judges. they dont make the system, they follow it I agree. Geez... we are agreeing on way too many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 To piggy-back on what Jeff is saying about how a corps rehearses, I can give first-hand examples. The most floor-time sleep I ever got on tour was '95 and that year was kind of successful. Same with the Buccaneers in recent years. I've watched them rehearse on several occasions. Efficient and effective. They use what limited time they have very, very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So perhaps the real issue than is the disconnect between the sheets and the judges. Far too often I hear of staff getting box 5 comments all over the tape and sheet, but a box 3 or box 4 score. In fact, I usually hear that from various, different corps at every show I attend. I'm sure we have all had similar experiences.... or maybe I'm just bad luck. I know it's hard for any individual to take time away from his/her family on a Saturday evening, spend hours critiquing these groups, only to have half your comments thrown back in your face by your piers in the late evening hours so I give the judging community a lot of credit. But it's also not fair to a group that if they put out a great performance worthy of a, lets say Box 4 score, but receive a mid-box 3 score. And the answer of: I made a mistake, better luck next weekend, or my personal favorite, I didn't know where the other groups would come in so I had to leave room, is unacceptable. Just my $.2' And just to reiterate, these opinions do not reflect any organization, simply my own. And we have gotten off topic too. if the judges verbiage is not lining up with the numbers, then yes, that's a training issue, corps should be bringing it up to the judging corrdinator and caption heads to be addressed. Having to leave room is kind of acceptable and a tricky spot for any judge. You go too high, and someone is better, you've thrown the whole linear out of whack, and worse, whoever follows them is in a no win position if they have put the number down from the previous one. the job of a judges is to rank, then rate. Unfortuantely, too many people only look at the rate and not the rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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