Tez Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Aesthetic inspection stations in manufacturing processes can be found significant within 4 parts per million. That's subjective assessment of a perceived aesthetic quality. This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison, where a judge is looking for one extremely specific thing. No where near the artistic complexity of say judging the general visual effect of an 11.5 minute show with 150 performers.... not even close. And yes, I know very well about spreads.... Up until the past couple of years, I used to track spreads from show to show very meticulously. Anybody else remember "Tez's Spread Rankings" that I would update nightly? This is how I noticed how consistent spreads are, and how consistent (if slightly less so) scores are as well. I have studied drum corps scoring in such great depth, primarily because I was fascinated with how consistent it really is. So again, I tell you to name me a judged activity with a similar scope to drum corps that gets evaluated with that kind of consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 To back up my claims with actual data.... Here is a graph of the last time I tracked spreads (2010). Notice how most lines stay relatively the same compared to their closest competitors? Yes there is some variation, but most lines stay in their place for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm glad drum corps competitions aren't manufacturing processes. I'm more glad we're seeing less slotting. Each show, each night, judge it as independently as you can. And yet they are . . . The point is that even subjective assesments become incredibly consistent and repeatable over time, drum corps judging and performance included, I'm sorry you missed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) To back up my claims with actual data.... Here is a graph of the last time I tracked spreads (2010). Notice how most lines stay relatively the same compared to their closest competitors? Yes there is some variation, but most lines stay in their place for the most part. Thank you for illustrating my point. There are others, but this example showed multiple changes in position - check out the changes in SCV, Glassmen, Academy, and Surf between 7/27 and 7/30 to name just one. The fact that these fluctuations occur in the same small block of time as well as to more than one corps in dfferent events is the indication that the change is not random and an uncommon variable is at work (whatever that might have been), much as occured this year immediately prior to Minneapolis, which is not to say the placements post-fluctuations aren't correct, just that they indicate an out-of-standard condition. Edited July 20, 2012 by 13strokeroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison, where a judge is looking for one extremely specific thing. No where near the artistic complexity of say judging the general visual effect of an 11.5 minute show with 150 performers.... not even close. And yes, I know very well about spreads.... Up until the past couple of years, I used to track spreads from show to show very meticulously. Anybody else remember "Tez's Spread Rankings" that I would update nightly? This is how I noticed how consistent spreads are, and how consistent (if slightly less so) scores are as well. I have studied drum corps scoring in such great depth, primarily because I was fascinated with how consistent it really is. So again, I tell you to name me a judged activity with a similar scope to drum corps that gets evaluated with that kind of consistency. You're right, judging is not anywhere near - it's less complex with far fewer variables. Thank you for proving my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) That said, I like going to the shows to watch and be entertained, and the level of entertainment among the Corps from 1-41 positions does vary from year to year, imo, despite any degree of substantive placement shifts from year to year among the various Corps. As do I. If I thought it mattered in the grand scheme, I wouldn't pay to see it. Edited July 20, 2012 by 13strokeroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 You're right, judging is not anywhere near - it's less complex with far fewer variables. Thank you for proving my point. Wow... I literally have NO idea what you're talking about, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Thank you for illustrating my point. There are others, but this example showed multiple changes in position - check out the changes in SCV, Glassmen, Academy, and Surf between 7/27 and 7/30 to name just one. The fact that these fluctuations occur in the same small block of time as well as to more than one corps in dfferent events is the indication that the change is not random and an uncommon variable is at work (whatever that might have been), much as occured this year immediately prior to Minneapolis, which is not to say the placements post-fluctuations aren't correct, just that they indicate an out-of-standard condition. I see the graph and see amazing consistency for what (150 people performing + show design + human beings own preferences and opinions) is being judged. I think you and I completely disagree on how complex and nuanced a drum corps show is. Have you ever judged? Do you understand what an incredibly difficult job that is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) I see the graph and see amazing consistency for what (150 people performing + show design + human beings own preferences and opinions) is being judged. I think you and I completely disagree on how complex and nuanced a drum corps show is. Have you ever judged? Do you understand what an incredibly difficult job that is? I haven't, I do, I do have a professional background in assessing complex metasystems, and your chart is anything but-it fails on three of Deming's principles in multiple locations, indicating it is significantly inconsistent. I simply chose the instance in which positions changed as a result, showing how it had an impact on the bigger picture. I'm not quite certain where the hostility is coming from. The question was where was the inconsistency, I stated my opinion, used your evidence in support, and yet I get the distinct impression a very personal nerve was struck. Edited July 20, 2012 by 13strokeroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Salvatore Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The inconsistency exists to discourage talk of slotting. Boo.... inconsistency exists because of slotting... Judge A: "I thought you were giving them .3 over Crown tonight?" Judge B: "Nope even numbered days were yours to give them .3 over Crown" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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