BigW Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) The question then becomes, would DCI members want the way they are evaluated changed late season? Only if they thought the changed criteria benefitted their corps. I'm a realist, and I know I'd be in that camp. Does that mean you gamble and gear the program for late season and take whatever lumps you take and hope the restructured criteria make a difference, even after you've been placing badly? And if you've been winning, how does that go down if you get clobbered later? How do you reconcile that with corps membership, etc.? Let me tell you, the judges would get the blame, not the system imposed upon them. Fans, staff, and members would all take it out on them. They're a convienient punching bag when all else fails because they can't respond, just take the buffalo chips tossed at them and shrug. I've seen fans blame judges in HS Band because blizzard like conditions, sub zero farenheit temps, and 50+ miles an hour winds which made that sub zero even worse caused a contest to go indoors and hurt the chances of their kids. I asked their parents if they thought their children were gladiators. It was STILL the judge's fault, and we should have been ashamed that we took the safety and welfare of the kids into account, you know. So, perhaps then the answer is to rid the activity of adjudicators, throw it open to vox populi. "Clap Shows" have been around for decades at least in the all-age end of the activity, and no one took them seriously, especially corps membership. They were derided and laughed at in my day. I'd think they still would be. I'm sure a crowd from Loves Park Illinois would make a fair and impartial call on anyone other than PR. I'm sure a kid would pay their 5 grand hoping the right fans were on the panel and their parents would feel good about that as well. The whole concept is beginning to sound like a very veiled attack at BD and their strengths the more and more I think about it. I could be incorrect, but it's how it strikes me. Things like this usually get proposed because of an agenda on someone's part/to gain what Mark Donohue called the 'unfair advantage'. I've been around too long not to have seen it before. Edited August 31, 2012 by BigW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Powell Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 The question then becomes, would DCI members want the way they are evaluated changed late season? No... I knew that answer before I wrote what I wrote. Only if they thought the changed criteria benefitted their corps. I might be able to name one or two... Does that mean you gamble and gear the program for late season and take whatever lumps you take and hope the restructured criteria make a difference, even after you've been placing badly? Nope, keep doing what you've been doing to the best of your abilities. Shoot for the best possible show. I think shooting for judges marks is what is killing some corps. Rather than solidifying what they are doing they end up changing the game plan mid season. This is shooting themselves in the foot. This has been happening for decades now so that will not change. The "evolving" show kills some really great shows that just need to be cleaned. And if you've been winning, how does that go down if you get clobbered later? How do you reconcile that with corps membership, etc.? You are correct on this - I did not think the "corps" part through. It would be nice to see a "New" set of experienced eyes during the season (just as a safety net for the judges) - It would prove that the judges are consistent and give them more credit. A checks and balances system for them. I am not sure how it would work and I am not sure what they do now. The whole concept is beginning to sound like a very veiled attack at BD and their strengths the more and more I think about it. I could be incorrect, but it's how it strikes me. Things like this usually get proposed because of an agenda on someone's part/to gain what Mark Donohue called the 'unfair advantage'. I've been around too long not to have seen it before. BD only has an organizational advantage. They have been building that advantage since day 1. I wish people would realize that. As for blaming the judges. You are correct, they will get blamed for the hangnail on that third sop player. It is not the judges fault but people will make it theirs... Judging will always be questioned because parts are so subjective, to complex to explain, to many pieces to put together and so on. I was just thinking out loud to add to the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Not arguing that at all. Then where is the other 70 percent going right now? I don't know the answer. I'd think a fair amount should go into the educational angle. But what is fair? I have no right or wrong answers there. There's no doubt though that making the crowd dig what you do and show some love is worth at least 50 percent. That could be our backgrounds showing, though. the score Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Thank you for explaining the educational side of this - that is a great walk through of the process. I actually see this as a great place to compromise. Big Regionals and Finals Week are not the time for the education judges to be on the field, the corps field work should be ready at that point. Simply remove them during these shows. The rest of tour, I would say the corps are still a work in progress and the field judges are extremely useful. I know this can open up another can of discussion that the judging would be different and the sheets would have to be altered for those big events. That is okay, I am sure it could be balanced out. wrong. You need them at those shows too. You're telling me at San Antonio, a field judge can't help? or even semi finals? Really the only small weight your argument has is finals, and even then, you're changing the system for one show which is worthless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Because in my mind, you should be getting judged against the other corps. It will never happen, but I'm all for the 1st corps on getting a 50 (middle in everything) and each subsequent corps doing the same.. next corps better? 75, next corps better than 1st, but worse then 2nd? 62.5.. and so forth. It's a competition for an ordinal finish, not really against a set of criteria imo. you are getting judged against other corps at every show. and yes there is criteria.....it's on the sheets. and if you meet those criteria, then the ordinal should reflect it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 So... what are those field judges teaching the kids on finals night? Absolutely nothing that they did not hear all season. The judges on the field may hinder that finals performance but I guess they can correct those issue with editing just like a cracked note in a BD soprano solo. Within education, there is a point within every class that you have to take a test. I am basically saying these big shows are the final test. The constituents are not interested: Yep, they are not interested in many things, compromise being a major one. Thatis pretty normal within much of society today. the constiuents are interested, or they would have voted to change it. and if you think finals tapes from the field are worthless, you should see how many of them are on Youtube, Facebook, and hell, were even on the dvd's for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 These are just halftime shows that never perform as a halftime show. I hear what you are saying and some what agree. For the sake of Education and Assessment, I do not agree with your testing analogy. The judging criteria would not change that much, just the basic placement of the judges. As for it being a different set of rules, the rules would be the the same. Personally, I would not want my students prepping for a 50+ multiple choice questions and some essays - I want them to know the material and be prepared to really be tested. Any kind of test - and by any means. Teachers that tell you the format of the test are doing a disservice. This is where standardized assessment test have jacked up the education system - people only learn what they have to. Want to really kick the ant hill and score these corps properly - Put a well seasoned but virgin set of eyes and ears on the corps for the big shows. This would help validate the judging community as well. Test the judges as teachers as well. There are parts of the judging system that are flawed. This might not be one of them. It is useful for the learning process but the judges are not entertaining to watch and or march around. I simply stated a possible solution. No need to get worked up. the judging criteria. You'd need whole new sheets and a scoring system because it would change for one show. the rules is the same thing and...guess what? Finals judging on the field is grading that students know the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Powell Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 the judging criteria. You'd need whole new sheets and a scoring system because it would change for one show. the rules is the same thing and...guess what? Finals judging on the field is grading that students know the material. cool. agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Powell Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 I'm good. I was just thinking out loud. Doing that does sometimes get me in trouble but other times it will bring out valid things that could help. A one show different scoring system altogether is a bad idea, I agree. Judges on the field help educate and I think that is great. I did bring up some sort idea to put a checks and balances on the judges to make sure they are balanced and all judging along the same lines. I honestly do not know what they do now or if nothing how to put that system in place. It is just good practice within any sort of judging or quality control setting. It would also take away some finger pointing toward the judging community. I'm also not a fan of how judges insert recommended changes to show and shows evolve over the summer. There is to much evolution within some shows which proves that either they came out with the wrong product up front or they are not quite sure how to correct little stuff. Conflicting ideas may cause the biggest issue. This is just the practical managing designer in me trying to support my teams. There is probably not a resolve for this issue and it is just the way DCI works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 the score The answer was like an Elephant on my porch. I should have seen and noticed it waving its trunk. The problem is, being entertaining doesn't necessarily bag you the best kids. They want to go to a top competitor, especially when they fork out 5k to do it. It's a vicious cycle. If you have talent and you want to entertain, the major amusement parks can PAY you to entertain all summer and you'd likely work less harder. Kind of ironic. The more I think about this, the spiraling membership/tuition/whatever you want to try and call it to make it sound nicer to justify it costs drive this further, I would think. The pool of talented well off kids from well heeled homes in suburbia to draw from has to be shrinking to an extent. Which means you have to have tangible results to draw the cream of the crop. Just going to a corps because it's cool and entertaining doesn't make fiscal sense to most parents, or to kids unless they have the cash to blow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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