KeithHall Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 The season is officially over so now we can chat for the next 9 months..... Nanci D mentioned on FB about bringing back the Tic System. This was a system last used over 30 years ago. I guess if that system worked better than today's system we would have gone back to that. Even in our education system we use Rubrics which is similar to the reference criteria that Drum Corps judges use. Today our student want to see the criteria to get a certain grade. Same holds true in Music Performance Assessments (5 is superior...1 is Poor). The Tic System was to find mistakes. My opinion is that it worked, however it didn't have accountability. If Judge A was ticked off at the corps director of Corps B because he yelled at him about the last time they met...that judge could have a field day and tear that corps apart. No accountability. I remember in NY in 1972 we couldn't beat this one particular corps in NY but when we went out of state to US Open, we beat them by a few points. We have 9 months so lets chat! Hmmmmm the gestation period for babies. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRB Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Keith, a friend of mine, a well known judge, judged a non-sanctioned event about 1985 and was given the old tic sheet to judge on the field. He later confided in me how many more tics were there than he would have guessed. This was from a judge who had years of experience with the activity. It would be interesting for DCI to run two sets of judges at shows to evaluate scores/results based on using the tic system compared with the system of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindap Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Interesting idea as it contains top-down and bottom-up approaches with a meet in the middle philosophy…recommend tic system judges be volunteers with some drum corps experience to offset costs thus ensuring accountability! I’m assuming the tic judges will be on the field and aligned to the traditional horn, drum and drill captions, however, adding 3 field judges may require logistics in determining where to stand with a clipboard. I’ve always wondered that if a person is looking at a sheet of paper and writing, did they miss something in those few seconds at each and every musical phrase? I’m assuming a committee needs to be struck to develop the tic sheets. It’s doable based on the knowledge and resources from drum corps folks. Once developed, my presumption is that the system and sheets will be kitchen tested and tried to be true, possibly at a contest early in the season. This seems to adhere to reason? The sheets can then be critiqued not only at an informal critique amongst participants but also by the tic sheet committee and DCP. Oh my! As an aside, as chair of school council meetings a number of years ago, I’d assign the persons that complained the most the job of running our next fundraiser and then they stopped coming to meetings. How odd? Our meeting motto was ‘Focus on the Positive’ and we needed their help! I’m more content being Secretary or Treasurer. I like logistics 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Priester Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Keith, a friend of mine, a well known judge, judged a non-sanctioned event about 1985 and was given the old tic sheet to judge on the field. He later confided in me how many more tics were there than he would have guessed. This was from a judge who had years of experience with the activity. It would be interesting for DCI to run two sets of judges at shows to evaluate scores/results based on using the tic system compared with the system of today. Just my humble opinion, but I think today's judging system actually adds fuel to the "slotting" argument that goes on today. It seems that every corps just gets better as the season progresses and scores rise at each and every show. Is it no longer possible that corps A has an "off night" while corps B performs their "show of the year" and doesn't get the satisfaction of being rewarded first place over their rivals for that particular show? I have been to many junior and senior ( oops, make that all-age!?) shows over the years and have competed at both levels over the last 50 or so years and with the tic system there was always a chance that at any given contest, ANY corps could beat any other corps. That no longer seems to be the case. There are MANY corps out there who would NEVER come close to or actually achieve a perfect score in any given caption. Say what you want but the tic system definitely separated the men from the boys, based on ACTUAL PERFORMANCE at THAT show, not based on an Olympic style of judging/rewarding corps that seems to fall into "what did they do last night?". Judge the corps on the performance they present, not on what they did yesterday or last week. That seems to be what causes all the disenchantment with the fans today, regardless of who they root for. In the final analysis, the BEST corps THAT NIGHT will be awarded first place. And that, without scores soaring into the stratosphere! Again, just MHO. Ray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinky's Brain Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The first corps I was in around 1974, we were lucky the judges couldn't find all our tics. We would have bottomed out. We weren't good, but we had fun. But what did I know, I was only 13-14. We only did about six shows, so it only got a little better. We fixed the ones the judges found. They promptly found our others fast at the next show, so our execution scores never really improved. Which is better? Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearlsnaredrummer77 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The tic system has it's pluses as mentioned above: particularly for the elite corps. But for smaller/rookies (but then again, do these exist anymore?) it can be intimidating and create a certain tentativeness in approaching charts. Then there's also the debate over a line playing a bunch of difficult notes, but not executing as well versus the line playing easy charts cleanly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Just my humble opinion, but I think today's judging system actually adds fuel to the "slotting" argument that goes on today. It seems that every corps just gets better as the season progresses and scores rise at each and every show. Is it no longer possible that corps A has an "off night" while corps B performs their "show of the year" and doesn't get the satisfaction of being rewarded first place over their rivals for that particular show? I have been to many junior and senior ( oops, make that all-age!?) shows over the years and have competed at both levels over the last 50 or so years and with the tic system there was always a chance that at any given contest, ANY corps could beat any other corps. That no longer seems to be the case. There are MANY corps out there who would NEVER come close to or actually achieve a perfect score in any given caption. Say what you want but the tic system definitely separated the men from the boys, based on ACTUAL PERFORMANCE at THAT show, not based on an Olympic style of judging/rewarding corps that seems to fall into "what did they do last night?". Judge the corps on the performance they present, not on what they did yesterday or last week. That seems to be what causes all the disenchantment with the fans today, regardless of who they root for. In the final analysis, the BEST corps THAT NIGHT will be awarded first place. And that, without scores soaring into the stratosphere! Again, just MHO. Ray actually I believe Ray that the tic system ( although I believed at the time what you are saying ) BUT it didnt have to do with a corps being better on a given night and able to win ..it was the bias and whims of total inconsistant and many times bias worse than now judging, Look back at scores when corps would get a 80 one night and a 72 the next...thats not good judging no matter if the corps should have been at that 80 or the 72..thats crazy judging..The tic system was a hot mess with NO accountability..they were great years and todays judging has many many flaws ( mostly with the people who glued themselves to the activity )but at least you dont have the up and down judging..which IMO had little to do with the corps and all to do with judging. You could win one night and be 5th the next......now actually, i dont care if a corps fell flat on their face...could they really drop that much?..well back then yeah you could as far as numbers and scores so high..I agree BUT its because the lower tier corps scoring into the low 80s which maybe they shouldnt be drives the upper score higher...is any corps Jr or all age worth a 99 ever? of course not.....just numbers i get what youre saying about anyone could have won on a given night BITD but you can look at that 2 ways.... opportunity for all ( which is great ) or no consistancy or criteria or accountability in judging....I remember all to well judges actually able to say..." well I call it as I see it...case closed " we tend to look back sometimes with rose colored glasses......dont get me wrong it was a great time for drum corps....judging had nothing to do with that...thats for sure....there were lots of things BITD were a hot freakin mess also ...as there is lots of things today that are too im not really disagreeing wit you with todays system or judging BUT not agreeing with how you viewd the tic system era... Dont get me wrong , theres alot I wish were the same from BITD...judging isnt one of them though....not that todays is any better......JMO Edited September 9, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindap Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The tic system has it's pluses as mentioned above: particularly for the elite corps. But for smaller/rookies (but then again, do these exist anymore?) it can be intimidating and create a certain tentativeness in approaching charts. Then there's also the debate over a line playing a bunch of difficult notes, but not executing as well versus the line playing easy charts cleanly. I read September 2012 edition of DCW today. On page 6 is a photo of me on the podium with my corps. The text reads ‘Seneca Princemen beat Iron Brigade in brass by 3.8 points at 1973 US Open in Marion. The next day, in Toledo, Iron Brigade beat Princemen in brass by 7.8 points’. It’s a good thing I have selective memory; I trial judged younger groups in 1976, felt the tic system wasn’t good for that age group. I should have been an outspoken advocate then instead of now, sorry :( 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I read September 2012 edition of DCW today. On page 6 is a photo of me on the podium with my corps. The text reads ‘Seneca Princemen beat Iron Brigade in brass by 3.8 points at 1973 US Open in Marion. The next day, in Toledo, Iron Brigade beat Princemen in brass by 7.8 points’. It’s a good thing I have selective memory; I trial judged younger groups in 1976, felt the tic system wasn’t good for that age group. I should have been an outspoken advocate then instead of now, sorry :( thats exactly what I was trying to say..it was crazy...maybe the audience felt it was exciting BUT really? yeah I agree its a good thing about selective memory....make ya forget the bad....i recently looked back at scores from a corps I marched with and saw 5-7 point differences from one show to another and i said to myself....that really happened? lol...i couldnt believe i didnt remember that...i think kids today would be alot more savy.....we just went on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindap Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 thats exactly what I was trying to say..it was crazy...maybe the audience felt it was exciting BUT really? yeah I agree its a good thing about selective memory....make ya forget the bad....i recently looked back at scores from a corps I marched with and saw 5-7 point differences from one show to another and i said to myself....that really happened? lol...i couldnt believe i didnt remember that...i think kids today would be alot more savy.....we just went on Thank you :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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