Change to Judging

[HornTeacher]

The best corps according to who? Judging is subjective. (I am sure you did not need a reminder of that.)

I did not say that.

Outcomes change on the whim of a single individual judge all the time. (If not, there would be no need to judge more than one show per year.)

For someone who shrugs off just about any change ever proposed, I am amazed at how you bristle at this idea. I mean, here we are - not just us on DCP, but the powers that be in DCI committees who are tinkering with the judging system for the umpteenth time because even though all judging is subjective, we cannot seem to get a grasp on judging "general effect". Maybe the problem is that "general" effect requires a small fraction of input from the "general" public, instead of just the same eight people who judged the same shows over and over all summer long. As the earlier example shows, a system can be devised for incorporating such input at such a small percentage so that only the closest battles between corps would ever see placement changes... changes probably already taking place from day to day during the season... but that might be just enough incentive to cause corps to think outside the judges box.

Your reaction sounds like fear. What are you afraid of, really?

Ask Dave Richards.

[Stu]

maybe ...maybe not....wanna take the chance?.........................and we all know people that were in the activity that cant judge or make rationale evaluations...either way an audience doesnt have a criteria nor accountability period.as I said though...i doubt this will ever happen..maybe a fan vote..which is fine ..with points? I dont think so...

a) I know a few, not many, but a few people that were in the activity who cannot judge or make rationale evaluations. But the majority I know I would trust their judgments on many things including evaluations within DCI based on criteria sheets.

b) And I personally think the typical audience members who attend DCI events are intelligent, rational, and are capable of providing reasoned thought concerning the criteria provided to them on a judging sheet. Many of them may not know the actual theory behind chord structures, or why an inverted I chord does not sound as stable as a fundamental I chord, or the progression of historical significances from Mozart to Philip Glass; but they are far, far, far, far from the idiots you want to portray as them being.

[GUARDLING]

a) I know a few, not many, but a few people that were in the activity who cannot judge or make rationale evaluations. But the majority I know I would trust their judgments on many things including evaluations within DCI based on criteria sheets.

b) And I personally think the typical audience members who attend DCI events are intelligent, rational, and are capable of providing reasoned thought concerning the criteria provided to them on a judging sheet. Many of them may not know the actual theory behind chord structures, or why an inverted I chord does not sound as stable as a fundamental I chord, or the progression of historical significances from Mozart to Philip Glass; but they are far, far, far, far from the idiots you want to portray as them being.

stop baiting Stuie......noone said they were idiots

[HornTeacher]

a) I know a few, not many, but a few people that were in the activity who cannot judge or make rationale evaluations. But the majority I know I would trust their judgments on many things including evaluations within DCI based on criteria sheets.

b) And I personally think the typical audience members who attend DCI events are intelligent, rational, and are capable of providing reasoned thought concerning the criteria provided to them on a judging sheet. Many of them may not know the actual theory behind chord structures, or why an inverted I chord does not sound as stable as a fundamental I chord, or the progression of historical significances from Mozart to Philip Glass; but they are far, far, far, far from the idiots you want to portray as them being.

And I believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Great Pumpkin.

Like you, I DO believe that the typical DCI audience is basically intelligent and rational. I DON'T, however, believe that such audience is acquainted enough with the specific criteria under which the judges assess performance as prescribed by the specific judging sheets. Former MM's...yes. But that's about it (if even THEY are.) As for any others...unless you work with such sheets on a consistent basis, you can't know what is entailed.

Why do I suddenly feel like I am in the middle of some Jeff Dunham nightmare involving a fight between Walter and Achmed????

Edited March 14, 2014 by HornTeacher

[Stu]

stop baiting Stuie......noone said they were idiots

Ok; you did not specifically say they were idiots. You just think that the majority in the DCI audience all hold opinions which are way less worthy than the opinions you have concerning what is supposedly considered as being Good General Effect, Bad GE, Engaging GE, and Qualitative GE. And you maintain that they would not be capable of reading and deciphering a General Effect sheet designed specifically to solicit the General Effect opinions of said audience because they are not ‘experts’ in the field of Marching Arts like you. Good grief; Effect is, or is intended to be, an emotional engagement response to a performance like laughing, crying, happiness, sadness, anger, elation, … not an analytical evaluation of the technical aspects of the performance like intonation, balance, articulation, symmetry of motion, and uniformity of poise. And because Effect is, or is supposed to be, an emotional engagement response every human being apart from someone who is sociopathic is qualified to evaluate effect based on a set of specific judging sheet criteria.

[GUARDLING]

Ok; you did not specifically say they were idiots. You just think that the majority in the DCI audience all hold opinions which are way less worthy than the opinions you have concerning what is supposedly considered as being Good General Effect, Bad GE, Engaging GE, and Qualitative GE. And you maintain that they would not be capable of reading and deciphering a General Effect sheet designed specifically to solicit the General Effect opinions of said audience because they are not ‘experts’ in the field of Marching Arts like you. Good grief; Effect is, or is intended to be, an emotional engagement response to a performance like laughing, crying, happiness, sadness, anger, elation, … not an analytical evaluation of the technical aspects of the performance like intonation, balance, articulation, symmetry of motion, and uniformity of poise. And because Effect is, or is supposed to be, an emotional engagement response every human being apart from someone who is sociopathic is qualified to evaluate effect based on a set of specific judging sheet criteria.

Yeah an entire audience is going to judge like that...by the way GE is way more than you just mentioned and how it relates to all aspects of all areas and yes it can be emotional engagement but can be much more than the obvious......and Im not debating the sheets nor the interpretation of them with you .or what you think they mean or should.....maybe we can hand sheets out and you can teach a class for DCI to each audience on WHAT GE IS and HOW TO JUDGE IT.........hey GE is hard enough for judges.....help them out too I'm sure they would appreciate the input..there are many very experienced people in here ( DCP ) that constantly ask how GE is judged and what it all means and what people see or dont......explain it to them........you would be good at that .. ...or better yet........maybe the parents in the stands can educate them ..on the subject.......being that you feel it would be just fine. or better yet the audience can do a clinic for a corps and staff so that they can be educated so they know what to do and how to get that ENGAGEMENT

,

Edited March 15, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

Yeah an entire audience is going to judge like that...by the way GE is way more than you just mentioned and how it relates to all aspects of all areas and yes it can be emotional engagement but can be much more than the obvious......and Im not debating the sheets nor the interpretation of them with you .or what you think they mean or should.....maybe we can hand sheets out and you can teach a class for DCI to each audience on WHAT GE IS and HOW TO JUDGE IT.........hey GE is hard enough for judges.....help them out too I'm sure they would appreciate the input..there are many very experienced people in here ( DCP ) that constantly ask how GE is judged and what it all means and what people see or dont......explain it to them...or better yet.......you would be good at that .maybe the parents in the stands can educate them ..on the subject.......being that you feel it would be just fine.

I mean this as a serious question; honest!!! Where is your 'Perception is Reality, Truth is Relative' theory on this matter Guardling? Because your postings on judging General Effect within DCI read as if you are standing quite firm on a position that 'your perception of reality and truth' is far better, far greater, and far more qualified than those in the audience. It is sort of funny that I am in the camp of shaking things up, add some spice to the judging, and you are in the camp of nope we have to have dogmatic judging criteria which is only accessible to those who think like you do.

[GUARDLING]

I mean this as a serious question; honest!!! Where is your 'Perception is Reality, Truth is Relative' theory on this matter Guardling? Because your postings on judging General Effect within DCI read as if you are standing quite firm on a position that 'your perception of reality and truth' is far better, far greater, and far more qualified than those in the audience. It is sort of funny that I am in the camp of shaking things up, add some spice to the judging, and you are in the camp of nope we have to have dogmatic judging criteria which is only accessible to those who think like you do.

you have to be taken seriously to shake anything up STUIE...you make more statements but dont answer ever....why not do what I said?

Edited March 15, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

...why not do what I said?

Thank you for just demonstrating the actual point of all of this!!!

[GUARDLING]

Thank you for just demonstrating the actual point of all of this!!!