What is wrong with US?

[2000Cadet]

29 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

First, I want to say I'm a prime ally in recognizing some semblance of what you might be feeling right now regarding your corps' hiatus. I was a hot mess around this time last year. There are plenty here who also might know that feeling. I'm sorry you and many others are going thru it. Just painful.

And... there will always be some who jump to protect the org (good, that's important) and some just as quick to identify gaps (I think that's also good, but clearly others disagree, fine, free country and whatnot.)

It's when one of those groups tries to silence the other that my hackles go up. And poster after poster in this thread has described why going to the orgs rarely works. Hint: it's silencing. You can choose to ignore that if you want, but I'm all about identifying patterns as a qualitative researcher, and that's a big one.

So we're getting closer and closer to shooting the messengers here, rather than taking a closer look at the orgs with documented failures in their legacies. But it will be pointed out.

It was pointed out in the SoA thread by at least a few posters (some survivors) that blaming whistleblowers for the potential destruction of an org was victim blaming. What's the difference here? Genuine question, not a gotcha.

The difference is I'm not blaming a whistleblower or a victim. Some of those who have posted things about other corps don't come across as whistleblowers or victims, but rather someone with an ax to grind (yes, I said it again because I have seen it myself). AGAIN, I am ALL for holding corps accountable for what they've done (I was one of the first who came out against you know who when we all found out what he'd done). What I'm saying is, I don't think DCP has been the most effective way to do that. 

 

11 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Thanks for the dialogue.

We've already been clear here that going to the orgs hasn't worked, so what other steps do you recommend?

The "axes to grind" and "dirty laundry" language is kind of a no starter for me. Heard it too much with my own alum when I have brought up legitimate, verifiable concerns. It's used to flippantly to take seriously at this point.

I don't think I get who put what your referencing here so I'll leave it.

Again, how do you know this hasn't been done?

We don't. But the point is, too many times, the issues pop up on DCP with no context, with no idea whether or not someone within the org has brought it to someone's attention, so on and so forth. 

See my previous post for the steps I recommend. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by 2000Cadet

[MarimbaManiac]

24 minutes ago, 2000Cadet said:

And let's get real folks. We ALL know there are certain people on this forum with axes to grind, who foam at the mouth at the slightest bit of controversy within corps they do not particularly like (or maybe the people within those corps), so let's not get brand new. 

 

Yeah let's talk about this right here. This is YOUR assumption. YOU are categorizing what's happening in that way. I don't particularly feel like that's the case, and in fact most of the people who have been vocal about the issues within SCV are alumni that love the organization very much, and have tried to "approach the organization" (your words), MANY times as an alumnus or staff member, and have been shut out by an organization that refuses to take accountability. 

This isn't a "Blue Devils pay off the judges" conversation where people are just spouting their opinions and biases, these are GENERATIONAL issues within institutions that have proven to be woven into the fabric of the organizations operational structure. 

48 minutes ago, 2000Cadet said:

Third, The POINT of my initial post was to ask why people choose to bring issues on DCP, which usually leads to nothing being done except threads being led down rabbit holes with no solutions, and ultimately that thread getting closed. If people TRULY want to get something fixed within that specific organization, then they should approach that organization instead of adding to the destruction of that organization. 

Again it's your assumption that bringing these issues to DCP, or Reddit, which are both primary communication hubs for information about the organizations, doesn't do any good. 

Go look at the r/drumcorps subreddit. Every other post is something like, "where should I audition?" or "how should I prepare for camp?" or "how do I prepare for tour?" People go to these internet communities to get information about the activity in general and specific corps, and I guarantee that at least a few of them learned something new about SCV that will make them think twice about auditioning or accepting a contract. 

The point is accountability, and considering corps like SCV have basically stonewalled alumni trying to hold them accountable in their internal forums, they've been evasive about answering questions in board meetings and official venues, and there really isn't any other kind of official communication forum, DCP/Reddit/Twitter are the best options for asking inconvenient questions, pointing out irregularities, and warning potential members of impending issues. 

Maybe if people were waving the red flag 12 months ago, there wouldn't have been so many people hung out to dry after paying camp fees only to see the corps fold a few days later. 

No one is "adding to the destruction of the corps" besides the corps themselves, and their own actions. Being quiet isn't helping them recover, it's allowing them to continue the same behavior that put themselves in this position to begin with. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by MarimbaManiac

[2000Cadet]

2 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Yeah let's talk about this right here. This is YOUR assumption. YOU are categorizing what's happening in that way. I don't particularly feel like that's the case, and in fact most of the people who have been vocal about the issues within SCV are alumni that love the organization very much, and have tried to "approach the organization" (your words), MANY times as an alumnus or staff member, and have been shut out by an organization that refuses to take accountability. 

This isn't a "Blue Devils pay off the judges" conversation where people are just spouting their opinions, these are GENERATIONAL issues within institutions that have proven to be woven into the fabric of the organizations operational structure. 

Again it's your assumption that bringing these issues to DCP, or Reddit, which are both primary communication hubs for information about the organizations, doesn't do any good. 

Go look at the r/drumcorps subreddit. Every other post is something like, "where should I audition?" or "how should I prepare for camp?" or "how do I prepare for tour?" People go to these internet communities to get information about the activity in general and specific corps, and I guarantee that at least a few of them learned something new about SCV that will make them think twice about auditioning or accepting a contract. 

The point is accountability, and considering corps like SCV have basically stonewalled alumni trying to hold them accountable in their internal forums, they've been evasive about answering questions in board meetings and official venues, and there really isn't any other kind of official communication forum, DCP/Reddit/Twitter are the best options for asking inconvenient questions, pointing out irregularities, and warning potential members of impending issues. 

Maybe if people were waving the red flag 12 months ago, there wouldn't have been so many people hung out to dry after paying camp fees only to see the corps fold a few days later. 

No one is "adding to the destruction of the corps" besides the corps themselves, and their own actions. Being quiet isn't helping them recover, it's allowing them to continue the same behavior that put themselves in this position to begin with. 

They are not assumptions. They are things I've witnessed myself. Additionally, that one corps chose to treat their alum like they're not entitled to information does not mean that's the same for every drum corps. Just because one thing works for one doesn't mean it works for all, and I acknowledge that with my own ideas and statements as well. 

AGAIN, I'm not saying people should be quiet. And I'm not going to beat a dead horse with it. I believe there are better ways to handle it, you believe posting these stories on DCP is appropriate.

[MarimbaManiac]

1 minute ago, 2000Cadet said:

They are not assumptions. They are things I've witnessed myself. Additionally, that one corps chose to treat their alum like they're not entitled to information does not mean that's the same for every drum corps. Just because one thing works for one doesn't mean it works for all, and I acknowledge that with my own ideas and statements as well. 

AGAIN, I'm not saying people should be quiet. And I'm not going to beat a dead horse with it. I believe there are better ways to handle it, you believe posting these stories on DCP is appropriate.

They're quite literally assumptions based on your own perceptions. You can't witness someone's intent through an internet forum beyond what they provide.

Edited October 25, 2023 by MarimbaManiac

[2000Cadet]

Just now, MarimbaManiac said:

They're quite literally assumptions based on your own perceptions. You can't witness someone's intent through an internet forum beyond what they provide.

As I've said. They're not assumptions. They are things I've witnessed myself. I'm not going any further than that, but my statement stands whether you want to label it an assumption or not. 

[MarimbaManiac]

Just now, 2000Cadet said:

As I've said. They're not assumptions. They are things I've witnessed myself. I'm not going any further than that, but my statement stands whether you want to label it an assumption or not. 

Yeah, they're assumptions, by definition. 

...and yes you are saying people should be quiet. You're just casting it as "keeping the peace" or "doing the RIGHT way" (which conveniently has no definition beyond "not like this").

[2000Cadet]

Just now, MarimbaManiac said:

Yeah, they're assumptions, by definition. 

...and yes you are saying people should be quiet. You're just casting it as "keeping the peace" or "doing the RIGHT way" (which conveniently has no definition beyond "not like this").

Lol, so my statements are assumptions, but you're telling ME what I'm saying. 

I said exactly what was on my brain. If you want to take it as that, do what you want. I don't really care. But the points I made are statements by which I stand so we can both move along. 

[MarimbaManiac]

Just now, 2000Cadet said:

Lol, so my statements are assumptions, but you're telling ME what I'm saying. 

I said exactly what was on my brain. If you want to take it as that, do what you want. I don't really care. But the points I made are statements by which I stand so we can both move along. 

Yes, and what is in your brain is an assumption of someone else's motives. You're ASSUMING that people simply have an axe to grind, vs some other motive they might have. 

It's really straightforward logic, but I digress. 

[2000Cadet]

1 minute ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Yes, and what is in your brain is an assumption of someone else's motives. You're ASSUMING that people simply have an axe to grind, vs some other motive they might have. 

It's really straightforward logic, but I digress. 

[scheherazadesghost]

17 minutes ago, 2000Cadet said:

The difference is I'm not blaming a whistleblower or a victim. Some of those who have posted things about other corps don't come across as whistleblowers or victims, but rather someone with an ax to grind (yes, I said it again because I have seen it myself). AGAIN, I am ALL for holding corps accountable for what they've done (I was one of the first who came out against you know who when we all found out what he'd done). What I'm saying is, I don't think DCP has been the most effective way to do that. 

It may not be the most effective in every case, but it's one strategy among many. If we shut that down as an option, when corps directors and BODs read here, then we're essentially making that strategy less effective. Sometimes the worst case scenario (in the case of the aforementioned DCPer/SCV alum who disclosed physical assault) public documentation on social media is their only recourse. The statute of limitations assures that. So, in the very least, social media serves that purpose, especially when corps orgs don't want to hear it.

And I'm not sure those without all the context, as you've said are the readers here, have enough information to judge whether folks have an ax to grind or not. I'm not sure you can claim both "there's not enough context" and "they've got an ax to grind" in good faith.

17 minutes ago, 2000Cadet said:

We don't. But the point is, too many times, the issues pop up on DCP with no context, with no idea whether or not someone within the org has brought it to someone's attention, so on and so forth. 

See my previous post for the steps I recommend. 

In my case, the first step I took was following up after being asked to join the board at VMAPA, after telling them about the abuse. And as I've stated, I've been in dialogue with them on a number of occasions since. Another whistleblower for VMAPA was on the board and helped clean up bingo fraud around the time you and I were marching. So, questioning motives and strategies here lacks context again.

The no context thing is just the nature of the beast when there is no legitimate outlet for these complaints, which I've tried to be very clear about.

The steps you recommended were starting at the bottom and working your way up. Many of us have done that. What else do you have? I've contacted: MAASIN, the US Center for Safe Sport, The Army of Survivors, The Courage First Athletes Helpline, Tricia Nadolny (directly), DCI Whistleblower, VMAPA Whistleblower and alumni association and historical society, Phantom Regiment Whistleblower, Crown Whistleblower, BD Whistleblower, Academy Whistleblower. Response is almost always the same. I've used reddit and DCP also, regarding social media platforms. Where have I gone wrong? And, further, what more is expected of younger or less experienced survivors/whistleblowers who don't know where to go?