skywalker Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 But you don't know the situation, therefore, give Stephanie a break.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> As I said, I know a LOT of information about these particular situations (I was around in 1986), which is why it amuses me to see people talk about being screwed. That line of logic does NOT coincide with what I know about those things, or the accounts from the people I've been associated with who were very much in the thick of it at the time (including some staff and members of the 27th Lancers). I'm glad that the official stance from the 27th Lancers and their leadership is "no excuses." That's the way it should be in a competitive arena like drum corps. You can perform better than you've performed all year long, and it doesn't guarantee anything. Reasonable people understand that, and I certainly appreciate you coming right out and saying it. Thank you! In regards to not believing something if I never see it, well, in the case of allegations of conspiracy that would have to include the executive director of DCI at the time, the other corps directors of the member corps of DCI at the time, and the entire judging community at the time, yeah, I think I would need to see some concrete proof on that one. "We were robbed" and "we did everything DCI wanted us to and got crapped on" just doesn't cut it. Dinosaurs? Sheesh, I see 'em every day! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwscv87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Ok, we need lighten this up. Here's my story from 1986...History will record that the Blue Devils swept all captions that night. But we knew who the better brass line was (BD ended up with a 10 in ensemble brass, while we got a 9.8...a dumping if I ever saw one...no way BD was two tenths better. One, maybe, but not two). Final score, BD 19.8, Suncoast 19.7. A few years later Jack Meehan would tell me he was convinced BD should have been second in brass that night...and that meant a lot to me (I would eventually go with the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" school of thought and join the Blue Devils). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As I said on page 1 of this thread you can count me in the crowd that absolutely loves the 1986 Suncoast Sound brass performance. However, every recap of finals I have seen shows a different result than you indicate. From corpsreps: BD 19.8 SCV 19.6 Suncoast 19.5 Nobody else was over 19. You guys get my vote for the best brass performance of the season, but I believe those were the actual results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byline Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hrrrmnn.... it's 83 all over again, only everyone sympathizes with Steph. I'm taking my ball and going home!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, except that as I recall, you were talking about the Argonauts, right? That you should've been in finals ahead of Troopers, or something like that? I think the difference of opinion here has to do with 27th Lancers being a corps with a well-established tradition, also being a finalist for many years, but going on the decline competitively and feeling pressure to conform to changes within the activity. Which I think is a very different point from what you were describing, which sounded to me more like a conspiracy theory of DCI deliberately preventing you from making finals. I don't think anyone will disagree with either you or Steph that there most definitely is pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" . . . and that doesn't come solely from DCI, though DCI is a part of it. But I have never believed in conspiracy theories that say so-and-so was deliberately kept from finals for doing thus-and-such. I will agree that while some competitive results are questionable, it's all too easy to paint that as some sort of conspiracy, when my experience in judging points to a much more complex interaction of happenstances, and just my opinion of who is better than whom. My opinion may not be right, others may not agree, but they're not the ones who were asked to judge; I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 As I said on page 1 of this thread you can count me in the crowd that absolutely loves the 1986 Suncoast Sound brass performance. However, every recap of finals I have seen shows a different result than you indicate. From corpsreps:BD 19.8 SCV 19.6 Suncoast 19.5 Nobody else was over 19. You guys get my vote for the best brass performance of the season, but I believe those were the actual results. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Weird. I'm looking at a Xerox of the recap from finals night (got it from John Fulton) and it clearly has the numbers I quoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwscv87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Weird. I'm looking at a Xerox of the recap from finals night (got it from John Fulton) and it clearly has the numbers I quoted. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmmmn - I dunno then. You guys were fantastic regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longfade Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Here’s my 2-cents’ worth, which will probably count for very little. I fully agree with Skywalker. I am so very tired of reading posts from (mostly) LancerLady stating “We got robbed, we should’ve won in 1980, we should’ve beat so-and-so in 84-85-86, etc.” Oh, I know I am on dangerous ground here, but surely I am not the only one thinking this. What’s even more galling is that when Apoch ventures to question the 83 judging he is VILIFIED. I was shaking my head thinking, “Okay, then why doesn’t that standard apply to other people who regularly question placements, scores, etc? Why so much venom leveled against this guy, when I’m reading daily posts about how 27 got ‘robbed’ (I hate that word) a quarter of a century ago?” This whole thing about going with the changes, well, guess what? It could just as easily be construed as progress as conformity. 27, and many other corps, just weren’t doing anything new. I feel that Skywalker is justified in asking for specifics. How was this suggestion presented to you? Was it a comment made on a tape, a constructive criticism, or was it a really an ultimatum? The mid-80’s, as we all know, was a time of incredible change and evolution. It became obvious fast who was able to adapt and who wasn’t. That’s not politics. What else did you do besides a Sondheim book to update your presentation? I saw your show that year and I liked it fine, I liked VK’s show okay too. But I am not a judge and far be if for me to get into it with someone over a few 10ths of a point. And finally, please no more nonsense about how hard everyone worked. It belittles everyone who marched that year or any other when you suggest that somehow your work was more valuable than anyone else’s. I marched in a non-top 12 corps and I can tell you that we worked hard too. That’s a given, and it does not ensure anything. As for disappointment, well, there’s a 13th-place corps every single year. Ask them how they feel about it. And really, how different would your life be right now if you HAD made finals? I’ve been reading this DCP forum for months and it’s great. I LOVE reading all of people’s memories and experiences, just a little tired of the 27 thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwscv87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 this thread ----> train wreck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadet86 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 this thread ----> train wreck! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agree bro! Thats why I have refrained from my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferb27 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 As I said, I know a LOT of information about these particular situations (I was around in 1986), which is why it amuses me to see people talk about being screwed. That line of logic does NOT coincide with what I know about those things, or the accounts from the people I've been associated with who were very much in the thick of it at the time (including some staff and members of the 27th Lancers).I'm glad that the official stance from the 27th Lancers and their leadership is "no excuses." That's the way it should be in a competitive arena like drum corps. You can perform better than you've performed all year long, and it doesn't guarantee anything. Reasonable people understand that, and I certainly appreciate you coming right out and saying it. Thank you! In regards to not believing something if I never see it, well, in the case of allegations of conspiracy that would have to include the executive director of DCI at the time, the other corps directors of the member corps of DCI at the time, and the entire judging community at the time, yeah, I think I would need to see some concrete proof on that one. "We were robbed" and "we did everything DCI wanted us to and got crapped on" just doesn't cut it. Dinosaurs? Sheesh, I see 'em every day! :) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was very upset at the time and at times still am. But as I've gotten older, I've learned that **** happens and whether you agree with the results or not, you gotta move on. I had the honor of performing with 2-7 in 94. That certainly took some of the edge off of the last years of the competitive corps based on the crowd reaction that evening. Stephanie is one of the good people and I do understand her feelings on 86. A very proud and successful organization performed their last show that night in Madison. I've mentioned this before, instead of leaders we became followers. As a result we were vulnerable and did whatever was needed to stay afloat. We never needed to listen to the judges and DCI personnel for a show or design direction before. This was fairly new territory for us. So to do the things we were advised to do and then find ourselves on the outside looking in, it was hard to take. Very tough on all involved, whatever the reasons. During the season, someone involved with the corps didn't help things by blabbing that 86 was going to be the last year for the corps. I agree it's tough to prove a "conspiracy" unless names are named. In this case, it's better off to let sleeping dogs lie. Stephanie is just one of the many good kids in that marched in the corps that year. They never quit and they filled that uniform proudly to the bitter end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
From The Pressbox Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Recapping...Suncoast Brass in 1986 at various Regionals/Madison 7/26/86-DATR Field Brass (Phillips)-------BD 9.2---SCV 9.0---SS 8.8---CAV 8.5 Ens Brass (Baggs)---------BD 9.5---SCV 9.3---CAV 8.8---SS 8.3 Total------------------------BD 18.7---SCV 18.3---CAV 17.3---SS 17.1 (GE Brass-BD) 8/2/86--DCI South Prelims FBrass (Fredericks)-------SCV 9.3---CAV 9.1---SS 9.1---SA 8.8 EBrass (Turner)-----------CAV 9.4---SCV 9.3---SS 9.1---SA 8.9 Total------------------------SCV 18.6---CAV 18.5---SS 18.1---SA 17.7 (GE Brass-SCV) 8/2/86--DCI South Finals FBrass (Doyle)-------------SCV 9.5---SS 9.4---CAV 9.1---SA 9.0 EBrass (Fredericks)-------SCV 9.4---CAV 9.2---SS 9.1---SA 9.0 Total-------------------------SCV 18.9---SS 18.5---CAV 18.3---SA 18.0 (GE Brass SCV) 8/15/86 DCI Semi-Finals FB (Niermeyer) BD QAL 4.0 (1)---MUS 2.9 (2)---TCH 3.0 (1) TOT 9.9 (1) SCV QAL 3.9 (2)---MUS 3.0 (1)---TCH 2.9 (2) TOT 9.8 (2) SS QAL 3.9 (2)---MUS 2.9 (2)---TCH 2.9 (2) TOT 9.7 (3) EB (Mitchell) BD QAL 3.9 (1)---MUS 3.0 (1)---BAL 3.0 (1) TOT 9.9 (1) SCV QAL 3.9 (1)---MUS 3.0 (1)---BAL 2.9 (2) TOT 9.8 (2) SS QAL 3.9 (1)---MUS 2.9 (3)---BAL 2.9 (2) TOT 9.7 (3) Total--BD 19.8---SCV 19.6---SS 19.4 8/17/86 DCI Finals FBrass (Doyle) SS QAL 3.9 (1)---MUS 3.0 (1)---TCH 3.0 (1) TOT 9.9 (1) BD QAL 3.9 (1)---MUS 2.9 (3)---TCH 3.0 (1) TOT 9.8 (2) SCV QAL 3.8 (3)---MUS 3.0 (1)---TCH 2.9 (3) TOT 9.7 (3) EBrass (Phillips) BD QAL 4.0 (1)---MUS 3.0 (1)---BAL 3.0 (1) TOT 10.0 (1) SCV QAL 4.0 (1)---MUS 2.9 (2)---BAL 3.0 (1) TOT 9.9 (2) SS QAL 3.9 (3)---MUS 2.8 (3)---BAL 2.9 (3) TOT 9.7 (3) Total---BD 19.9---SCV 19.6---SS 19.5 3 great hornlines!! Way too close to call. Go Suncoast Blue Vanguard Sound Devils, Gregg w/Stp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.