Dave Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 That doesn't mean it makes sense to do it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tborden10 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Everyone should have known what was at stake on what days...Tuesday - Order for Finals Thursday - Caption awards, medals, rings, DCI Division II Divisional Champion title, order for Grand Finals Saturday - DCI Division II World Champion title, flag, revolving trophy, appearance at Div 1 Finals for Retreat So long as everyones staff informed their corps of this, ie. saying more than "you better beat --you know who--", then there shouldn't be an issue. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The rings weren't at stake on Thursday. The format was messed up this year, but that shouldn't take away from the fact that ECJ is the Div II Grand Champions. ECJ won the last show...the FINAL show of the year. That makes them champions, no one gave World Series rings to the Cardinals last year for being the NL Champs. Besides, ECJ is ordering rings, and if I marched Spartans, I wouldn't want a ring, for DIVISIONAL finals, it wouldn't be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phirefenix Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 (edited) The changes are a big mess that needs cleaning up. The feeling I see out of this all is that the gold medal around Spartans neck is an empty trinket. I'd like to see more focus on this issue go towards fixing the format rather than negativity against Spartans or ECJ for trying to make sense of this. Neither corps did anything to bring it on themselves other than perform their show as best they could. Yet people squabble over the true champion. When in fact, by DCI's definition, both are champions. For the next few months both corps will have to show a high level of respect, and corpsmanship towards each other. Both are caught up in this confusing black hole of a pickle. The level of companionship I saw on the field at retreat has waned. Over things that the members really shouldn't concern themselves with. They did what they do, marched their ##### off. I feel the BoD didn't intend for this to happen. Though it did, and now the members are left confused, and arguing. Just my 42 cents Edited August 18, 2005 by Phirefenix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capdrum Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Everyone should have known what was at stake on what days...Tuesday - Order for Finals Thursday - Caption awards, medals, rings, DCI Division II Divisional Champion title, order for Grand Finals Saturday - DCI Division II World Champion title, flag, revolving trophy, appearance at Div 1 Finals for Retreat So long as everyones staff informed their corps of this, ie. saying more than "you better beat --you know who--", then there shouldn't be an issue. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I received the following, which I have reprinted verbatim, from Bob Jacobs, director of Jersey Surf. It is the document which lays out the procedure for awards and advancement at the 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship. 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship-Awards & Advancement Procedure Tuesday, August 9, 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship Preliminaries 1 Division caption awards, including the drum major award, are judged at this event and awards are announced and presented at the Division Championship contest 2 Every corps that does NOT advance will receive a participant patch stating: "DCI Division II & III World Championship Participant" 3 The top 9 corps in each division will advance (total of 18) Thursday, August 11, 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship Divisional Finals 1 All corps participating in this event are considered to be "Divisional Finalists" 2 All corps will participate in a full retreat at the end of the competition including the playing of "America/O'Canada 3 Each participating corps will receive a patch stating: "DCI Division II World Championship Divisional Finalist" or "DCI Division III World Championship Division Finalist" * A separate patch for the champion will state: "DCI Division II Divisional Champion" or "DCI Division III Divisional Champion" 4 Each participating corps will receive a medal stating: "DCI Division II World Championship Divisional Finalist" or "DCI Division III Divisional Finalist" * A gold, silver and bronze medal will be awarded to the top three corps with the gold medal stating: "DCI Division II Divisional Champion" or "DCI Division III Divisional Champion" 5 All caption awards including the drum major award will be presented 6 Existing traveling trophies will be awarded to the Divisional Champions 7 The three top scoring corps in each division and the next 6 highest scoring corps will advance Saturday, August 13, 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship Grand Finals 1 All corps participating in this event are considered to be "Grand Finalists" 2 All corps will participate in a full retreat at the conclusion of the competition including the playing of America/O'Canada 3 Only the Champion will receive a patch stating: "DCI Division II World Champion" or "DCI Division III World Champion" 4 Each Champion will receive a new trophy naming them the "DCI Division II World Champion" or "DCI Division III World Champion" 5 Each Champion will receive a flag naming them the "DCI Division II World Champion" or "DCI Division III World Champion" 6 The Spirit of Disney Award will be presented. This document was disseminated among the Division II/III corps on March 8, 2005 following the DCI winter meetings at which the Division II/III corps voted to alter the existing prelims, semis, finals format. Some Observations: 1 DCI did not impose this format upon the corps. In fact, the member corps are DCI. The members determine the rules of the game by which they play. This system was voted upon at the urging of the Division III corps, which desired that the traditional semi-final contest have more importance. Traditionally, the "next six highest scoring corps in the semi-finals have been Division II corps". As a result, Division III customarily only has 3 corps representing the division at finals. This proposal was passed over the objection of the Division II corps as the prospect of two winners was discussed. 2 It is curious that the caption awards are judged at the preliminary contest and presented at the Divisional Championship. Division I averages the scores over the three championship contests and awards them at Finals. This is done for two reasons. First, the units are required to display caption excellence over a three contest period. Second, no one judge makes the call as to the caption winner. Having judged DCI for 12 years, this is a difficult position for both the corps and the adjudicator, which was resolved by the Division I directors. 3 DCI does not award rings. This is a function of the Championship corps to address on behalf of its members. In the case of Division II, it would be left to the management of East Coast Jazz to purchase World Championship rings for its members. Similarly, there is nothing to prevent the Spartans from acquiring Divisional Championship rings for its members. 4 I have been involved in the drum corps activity for 35 years as a marching, member, instructor and adjudicator. Never has anyone ever had to tell me what was the most important contest of the year. Clearly, our activity has long held that Champions are crowned and caption honors awarded at the last show. While I appreciate the Division III corps seeking deserved recognition, this convoluted format has the clarity of boxing---WBA, WBC, etc. The New York Yankees were not the American League Champions because they beat the Red Sox in the first three games. First to four wins. Every competitive society has its expectations in determining a Champion. Last year ECJ lost a World Championship by the narrowest margin in the history of the activity. At the end of the day the Spartans were Champions and we were runner-up---fair and square. While we were dissappointed, it was as it should be. I would hope that the DCI Division II/III directors revisit this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phirefenix Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 I received the following, which I have reprinted verbatim, from Bob Jacobs, director of Jersey Surf. It is the document which lays out the procedure for awards and advancement at the 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship.2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship-Awards & Advancement Procedure Tuesday, August 9, 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship Preliminaries 1 Division caption awards, including the drum major award, are judged at this event and awards are announced and presented at the Division Championship contest 2 Every corps that does NOT advance will receive a participant patch stating: "DCI Division II & III World Championship Participant" 3 The top 9 corps in each division will advance (total of 18) Thursday, August 11, 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship Divisional Finals 1 All corps participating in this event are considered to be "Divisional Finalists" 2 All corps will participate in a full retreat at the end of the competition including the playing of "America/O'Canada 3 Each participating corps will receive a patch stating: "DCI Division II World Championship Divisional Finalist" or "DCI Division III World Championship Division Finalist" * A separate patch for the champion will state: "DCI Division II Divisional Champion" or "DCI Division III Divisional Champion" 4 Each participating corps will receive a medal stating: "DCI Division II World Championship Divisional Finalist" or "DCI Division III Divisional Finalist" * A gold, silver and bronze medal will be awarded to the top three corps with the gold medal stating: "DCI Division II Divisional Champion" or "DCI Division III Divisional Champion" 5 All caption awards including the drum major award will be presented 6 Existing traveling trophies will be awarded to the Divisional Champions 7 The three top scoring corps in each division and the next 6 highest scoring corps will advance Saturday, August 13, 2005 DCI Division II & III World Championship Grand Finals 1 All corps participating in this event are considered to be "Grand Finalists" 2 All corps will participate in a full retreat at the conclusion of the competition including the playing of America/O'Canada 3 Only the Champion will receive a patch stating: "DCI Division II World Champion" or "DCI Division III World Champion" 4 Each Champion will receive a new trophy naming them the "DCI Division II World Champion" or "DCI Division III World Champion" 5 Each Champion will receive a flag naming them the "DCI Division II World Champion" or "DCI Division III World Champion" 6 The Spirit of Disney Award will be presented. This document was disseminated among the Division II/III corps on March 8, 2005 following the DCI winter meetings at which the Division II/III corps voted to alter the existing prelims, semis, finals format. Some Observations: 1 DCI did not impose this format upon the corps. In fact, the member corps are DCI. The members determine the rules of the game by which they play. This system was voted upon at the urging of the Division III corps, which desired that the traditional semi-final contest have more importance. Traditionally, the "next six highest scoring corps in the semi-finals have been Division II corps". As a result, Division III customarily only has 3 corps representing the division at finals. This proposal was passed over the objection of the Division II corps as the prospect of two winners was discussed. 2 It is curious that the caption awards are judged at the preliminary contest and presented at the Divisional Championship. Division I averages the scores over the three championship contests and awards them at Finals. This is done for two reasons. First, the units are required to display caption excellence over a three contest period. Second, no one judge makes the call as to the caption winner. Having judged DCI for 12 years, this is a difficult position for both the corps and the adjudicator, which was resolved by the Division I directors. 3 DCI does not award rings. This is a function of the Championship corps to address on behalf of its members. In the case of Division II, it would be left to the management of East Coast Jazz to purchase World Championship rings for its members. Similarly, there is nothing to prevent the Spartans from acquiring Divisional Championship rings for its members. 4 I have been involved in the drum corps activity for 35 years as a marching, member, instructor and adjudicator. Never has anyone ever had to tell me what was the most important contest of the year. Clearly, our activity has long held that Champions are crowned and caption honors awarded at the last show. While I appreciate the Division III corps seeking deserved recognition, this convoluted format has the clarity of boxing---WBA, WBC, etc. The New York Yankees were not the American League Champions because they beat the Red Sox in the first three games. First to four wins. Every competitive society has its expectations in determining a Champion. Last year ECJ lost a World Championship by the narrowest margin in the history of the activity. At the end of the day the Spartans were Champions and we were runner-up---fair and square. While we were dissappointed, it was as it should be. I would hope that the DCI Division II/III directors revisit this issue. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thank you for clarification on what each night was about. I hope people will read this closely before jumping into the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyhank4 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 i heard a rumor that the kiwanis kavaliers were going to get rings for being the division 1 champions at the canadian open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Well, any corps could get a ring made for anything. I think some corps make a ring for each year with or without a championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 The way I see it, there are two champions... which is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liebot Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 (edited) i think what bothers me most is how the exclusivity of the ring is lost when both corps (apparently) intend to purchase them. and while i do understand that the spartans have the right to purchase their rings as divisional champions, i find it to be in somewhat poor taste, as if they were trying to cheapen what happened on saturday afternoon. no doubt it is their prerogative to purchase a division II divisional championship ring, but were i a member of the spartans, i would have a hard time wearing the ring in good conscience. edit: i'm not going to deny that i'm a member of ECJ. I think the reason that this bothers me most is that losing by the closest margin ever in DCI history in 04 left a bitter taste in my mouth (not because i think we should've won, just by virtue of being that close and not winning), and this whole business of both corps getting rings almost feels like something is being taken away from me - as if the accomplishment of winning on saturday afternoon is being trivialized. the fact that the spartans have the gold medal doesn't make it any easier - but that was something we knew we were competing for going into the contest, something we knew would be handed out that night. speaking personally, i was under the impression that only the winner of saturday's show would be purchasing rings, so i was somewhat surprised when i learned that spartans were (apparently) also planning on ordering rings. Edited August 18, 2005 by TTitans909 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerdurden Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 edit: i'm not going to deny that i'm a member of ECJ. I think the reason that this bothers me most is that losing by the closest margin ever in DCI history in 04 left a bitter taste in my mouth (not because i think we should've won, just by virtue of being that close and not winning), and this whole business of both corps getting rings almost feels like something is being taken away from me - as if the accomplishment of winning on saturday afternoon is being trivialized. the fact that the spartans have the gold medal doesn't make it any easier - but that was something we knew we were competing for going into the contest, something we knew would be handed out that night. speaking personally, i was under the impression that only the winner of saturday's show would be purchasing rings, so i was somewhat surprised when i learned that spartans were (apparently) also planning on ordering rings. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does it really matter that much to you? A hunk of silver/gold decided your season? Both corps had great seasons, and both are rightfully a champion. 2 seperate champions, at 2 seperate shows. The silver medal and finalist medal that I have are two of my least important pieces of memorabilia from when I marched. My pictures, jacket, friends, memories, and buckle are what mattered to me the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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