Buffalo, NY

[drumcat]

Maybe, Lee, it's you that learned the most that day.

[csdrummer]

*edit

Screw it.

I wrote about a page worths of arguments. But hey you guys win this one.

There is no such thing as a dangerous neighborhood eh?

Take the race war somewhere else

Edited October 19, 2005 by csdrummer

[drumcat]

*edit

Screw it.

I wrote about a page worths of arguments. But hey you guys win this one.

There is no such thing as a dangerous neighborhood eh?

Take the race war somewhere else

Race war? Excuse me, sir, but was it not YOU who first said,

"I dont want to sound racist at all on this site.

BUT!!!!

throwing a kid like me (I am a white kid from a small rural town) and 500+ kids from remotely the same background into a place where we feel threatened at every moment that we are there is stupid."

OK, here's the more direct, less friendly reply. Statements like, "I don't want to sound like a racist, but..." usually are the prelude to a racist statement. You brought up that you are a white kid, thus it's a reasonable assumption that in the Buffalo area, you were talking about a predominantly black neighborhood.

If you feel threatened, why would a staff who is extremely responsible for your well being, health, and safety, as well as every other corps staff, not pull you out of there? It's because you were reasonably safe.

Before you edited your last post, you said something about an announcer who sounded like a rapper, and an audience who talked through all the shows. I'm sorry; maybe that bothered you in the sense that you aren't used to it, but that doesn't make for an unsafe environment.

I don't plan on talking to you directly. You publicly posted that you thought the area was dangerous, and sited that fear based on the fact that you are white and the people around you weren't. So I'm publicly telling you that opinion is racist. I'm not condemning you; I'm hoping that you examine that experience and understand what racism is about. It's not a win-loss, and I don't think anyone is overtly mad at you. But you should understand clearly that your fears don't make it right for you to look down on people.

So please, examine your thoughts. If you're going to be scared of people, don't be scared because they aren't white. Thank goodness drum corps took you to a place where you can learn this lesson.

[kansasDC]

We used to do a show sponsored by the CMCC Warriors in Harlem at a big, old concrete stadium every year. I always loved that show because the crowd was awesome. Even more energetic than Pittsfield. We always reciprocated by having the Warriors in our show out on the north shore of L.I. It was always great watching their members from the inner city enjoying a day in the grass under the shade trees of L.I. These shows made everyone from both corps appreciate the other that much more.

[Lunchb0x]

i personally was very disappointed with this show, not because of the locale or setting (being from inner city NJ not anything new to me and its really nothing to fret over, its just another part of our great American society)

the disappointment for me was the rain, that crowd was there to be entertained and my corps and myself was extremely excited to play for them, we played our onfield warmup, got into our opening set, and as soon as they began to announce us and salute, lightning struck less than 100 yards from the field behind us and we stood on the front sideline for a good half hour only to be led off the field to see if we could wait it out. i was very upset because i had just went on a trip to the Akron NY hosptial's ER because i wound up to have developed some serious tendonitis in all my right foot instep tendons (yeah it hurt a lot) and when i got back i was ready for that show only for it to be rained out :'(

as far as the people stuff goes...like lex said, we got to talk with some of the kids and people in the stands and they were not at all in any way disrespectful or rude....but yeah that sums up how i felt about this show.

[KevinSop85]

I don't take lee's side about race being a factor in this not-so-great venue .

As Mike, a member from my hornline, pointed out earlier, the place was a great experience to learn how to really perform and touch peoples lifes.

Never did I feel that my life was in danger, but I was somewhat scared due to some of the yelling and taunting we went through.

The field wasn't the greatest for sure.

The crowd did have some people really excited for drum corps and I just wish that we could have performed maybe across town or in a somewhat nicer venue. I am sure that there were some fans that were upset by some of the locals being there and somewhat getting negatively involved.

I just think that the venue should change so that their is a more polite and possitively enthused crowd and atmosphere(regardless of race) to support the young adults of this activity.

In support of Lee and since I was raised in MI and WI and moved out here to California 5 years ago, being from a town that has a seemingly 98% white population. There is something scary to do with being completely out of your own little "world". I am sure that Lee is not racist and not trying to offend anyone but he does have a bit of a point to be made. Do I think that the venue should be changed because of such a change in the race of the crowd and locals? No, of course not. But I do believe that the difference in crowd can be, although not to everybody, a bit intimidating and scary. Note: I am not nor have I ever been racist.

I hope that I didn't offend anyone on this post(especially those of you who attended the show or live in that neighborhood). I felt that the sight just stuck out in my head as the worst conditions I have dealt with in Drum Corps and was hoping to get feedback about the location and others like it...to see how "normal" this is on a long tour across the country. I imagine that I will have to deal with some not-so-great conditions in the future.

Have a good night,

Kevin B)

[Geneva]

I don't take lee's side about race being a factor in this not-so-great venue .

As Mike, a member from my hornline, pointed out earlier, the place was a great experience to learn how to really perform and touch peoples lifes.

Never did I feel that my life was in danger, but I was somewhat scared due to some of the yelling and taunting we went through.

The field wasn't the greatest for sure.

The crowd did have some people really excited for drum corps and I just wish that we could have performed maybe across town or in a somewhat nicer venue. I am sure that there were some fans that were upset by some of the locals being there and somewhat getting negatively involved.

I just think that the venue should change so that their is a more polite and possitively enthused crowd and atmosphere(regardless of race) to support the young adults of this activity.

In support of Lee and since I was raised in MI and WI and moved out here to California 5 years ago, being from a town that has a seemingly 98% white population. There is something scary to do with being completely out of your own little "world". I am sure that Lee is not racist and not trying to offend anyone but he does have a bit of a point to be made. Do I think that the venue should be changed because of such a change in the race of the crowd and locals? No, of course not. But I do believe that the difference in crowd can be, although not to everybody, a bit intimidating and scary. Note: I am not nor have I ever been racist.

I hope that I didn't offend anyone on this post(especially those of you who attended the show or live in that neighborhood). I felt that the sight just stuck out in my head as the worst conditions I have dealt with in Drum Corps and was hoping to get feedback about the location and others like it...to see how "normal" this is on a long tour across the country. I imagine that I will have to deal with some not-so-great conditions in the future.

Have a good night,

Kevin B)

Kevin, your post about your experience in Buffalo saddened me. It brought back memories of a drum corps experience I had there many years ago (1967 to be exact). My corps was excited to be playing in the big city venue of old War Memorial Stadium (former home of the Buffalo Bills, now demolished) that year at the state American Legion championships. Drum corps was probably at its peak from the standpoint of numbers of units competing and the state was well represented from all its regions with St. Joe's of Batavia facing a stiff challenge by the Bronx Kingsmen. I can remember sitting in the stands at prelims and being wowed by some of the sounds from corps like the Utica Yankees, Kingsmen, St. Joe's Patron Cadets, Carter Cadets, and the Minisink Warriors.

But I stray from my point...The stadium was located in a section of town which was obviously quite poor and the kids of the 'hood were out in full force "interacting" with the visiting units and fans. I had excitedly called my parents to invite them to see us compete in the "big time" against these impressive units. So they drove in from our home about 100 miles from Buffalo only to be accosted by the locals as soon as they disembarked for $10 to "protect" your car. Well, other than that, nothing bad actually transpired. It was one of the eye-opening experiences for a kid from a small town to see some of these realities of life and I thank my drum corps days for this education. Without the opportunities that drum corps travel, hard-work, and performance afforded me, I don't know where I would have received some of these valuable life lessons (at least at such a young age) without feeling directly threatened myself.

It is sad, though, to ponder that despite the many changes for the better in Buffalo (cleaner air, urban renewal and lakefront development), some of the ills are still alive perhaps in the children (or grand children!) of the children of my youth. In Buffalo's defense, I am sure that this is not unique, but rather a microcosm of American urban life.

Kevin, enjoy your years of drum corps performance and keep your mind open as it sounds like you are.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Geneva

[csdrummer]

If you feel threatened, why would a staff who is extremely responsible for your well being, health, and safety, as well as every other corps staff, not pull you out of there? It's because you were reasonably safe.

Before you edited your last post, you said something about an announcer who sounded like a rapper, and an audience who talked through all the shows. I'm sorry; maybe that bothered you in the sense that you aren't used to it, but that doesn't make for an unsafe environment.

I dont have to much to say about these two points other than

1.We did leave that show because some of the show staff expressed opinions that the area was a bit testy.

2.The rapper announcer quote was also under a part of that post that stated my non-community related gripes about that contest. That was not intended to say the area was safe (which you misquoted me as saying), it was just meant to express my displeasure with the choice of announcers and the lack of "normal" drum corps show ettiquete.

I will admit some of my quotes could be construed as racist. But, I am a very good person at heart and am genuinely not a racist.

There are obviously a couple of people on this forum who don't believe it was a well thought out show, myself included. Lets just stop this topic because honestly people are just bringing up the same points over and over again and nothing new is really being said.

I apologize to all who took my comments as racist, and I feel sorry for writing posts in retalitiation (I should really stop doing that eh?)

chill out everyone. The drum corps community is very diverse and getting more so every year. I get the wonderful chance every year to meet great new people from all over the country, from different races, social status, and just different people in general.

We will disagree on whether a show should have been held in that area of buffalo, but people disagree on stuff every day. You will not convince somebody either way, especially when trying to ridicule them or find every little fault in their logic.

Honestly I think this topic is pretty well done. It has been talked about for 4 pages...most of them in retalition to my previous statements. Just drop it and be happy.

Have a good day everyone

Respectfully,

Lee Plummer

[Phirefenix]

*social commentary approaching. If you don't agree, that's cool*

I never got the impression that Lee sounded racist in his post. Webster's has a pretty good definition of it IMO.

One entry found for racism.

Main Entry: rac·ism

Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-

Function: noun

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

He never violated that definition in his post in the sense that he made any thoughts that proclaimed his superiority for being white. He made it known that given the situation he was in, he was not comfortable. It happens to anyone. Could an average person say they feel comfortable in any place, any time? I'm not so sure a person could say that truthfully. Calling another person on the web a racist openly merely for expressing their discomfort based on the fact that he was outside his known sphere of experience is ignorant. I doubt this post will change any of the severely polarized opinions expressed in this thread. Though I would like to at least make you think.

[vaguardguy]

*social commentary approaching. If you don't agree, that's cool*

I never got the impression that Lee sounded racist in his post. Webster's has a pretty good definition of it IMO.

One entry found for racism.

Main Entry: rac·ism

Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-

Function: noun

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

He never violated that definition in his post in the sense that he made any thoughts that proclaimed his superiority for being white. He made it known that given the situation he was in, he was not comfortable. It happens to anyone. Could an average person say they feel comfortable in any place, any time? I'm not so sure a person could say that truthfully. Calling another person on the web a racist openly merely for expressing their discomfort based on the fact that he was outside his known sphere of experience is ignorant. I doubt this post will change any of the severely polarized opinions expressed in this thread. Though I would like to at least make you think.

With all the political hoopla over Supreme Court justices and their ability to interpret the text of the constitution, I think it's very important we all carefully analyse the definition of "racism". These are important life-skills to have. You'll see that using MW's definition above, Lee was in fact making racist comments. Let's consider this more of a learning exercise - a betterment of ourselves - to better see what is in fact racist and what isn't.

Let's start with definition #2: "racial prejudice or discrimination", with the focus specifically on the word "discrimination". I'll give you that it would be very difficult to presume Lee's remarks were "prejudice"-d (one can argue his comments weren't based on preconceived beliefs, but rather on direct observation), but his comments were discriminatory. Step back for a second and not think of "discrimination" in the colloquial sense we use it with regards to racial difference, but rather the softer definition we associate with "to discriminate" such as, "Wow, Peter has such discriminating taste in fine beers," or, "I can't discriminate Peter's contra playing from that of the sound a dying whale (just for the record, I am being silly here ^0^ )." When you look at MW's definition of "discrimination" with careful attention to the relevant definition 3.a. (be sure while you're there to quickly look at the hyper link referencing the definition of "discriminating/discriminate"), his comments were indeed discriminating categorically rather than individually on basis of race.

To Lee's credit, his comments are a far cry from the offensive, nutjob racist remarks that we as a society refuse to condone. Instead, his categorical assertion needs to be evaluated more critically, and to be addressed with greater exposure and education. Yes, his comments were definitively racist, but I think this has been an educational experience for everyone and we're all better people for it *group hug *! Hooray drum corps!

Edit: Wordsmithing

Edited October 20, 2005 by vaguardguy